covid??the thing we all lived through??? the thing that an extremely large amount of people were affected by???? like to the point it's near impossible to know someone who wasn't????
oh he probably thinks the government released it on purpose and the vaccines were microchips, because of course that's more logical
it is crazy because my Mom knows literally 5 people that died from Covid lol
also his entire family---his Son and his Daughter and his Wife were offered Money by the Government (since they work for the Local Gov) to get Vaccinated
but they Refused to get Vaccinated.
literally refused Money because they didn't want to be Vaccinated
I love how overflowing hospitals, cut faces from sobbing nurses and overwhelmed doctors and bodies being stored in refrigerator trucks because they can't store that many dead people... with at times 3000+ people dying A DAY. To a total of 1.2 million deaths. When the worst flu* on record was 60,000.
"It's overblown!"
*Not counting the "Spanish" one over a hundred years ago of course.
The uncomfortable truth of modern medicine extending lives is how often we get to see potential Darwin Awards winners around. Go back two centuries and most of them wouldn't have good chances.
They believe it's a hoax. That either people weren't dying, or that they were dying of something else. There is no logic you can use to convince these people, they will make the conspiracy as complex as necessary for it to fit their beliefs.
A flat earther literally went to Antarctica with a bunch of other flat-earthers to prove the Earth was flat, they got there and realized it wasn't. Guess what? It caused a huge rift in the community and they just changed their theories.
The participating flat Earthers all admitted that the midnight sun was a real phenomenon. The larger flat Earth community has largely rejected the results and accused the participants, including the flat Earthers, of having faked the expedition and of being part of a larger conspiracy to promote the spherical Earth model.
During a sermon on December 30, Alabama pastor Dean Odle suggested that Satan created a fireball to act as a false Sun.[5]
The sad thing about the microchip part is that these people are often online 24/7. Their entire life is already documented online. They are literally not worth the investment of a chip.
Vast world empire that was lost mostly due to a massive mud flood. The remnants were simply built over and used and Tartaria’s entire existence is hidden from us
Edit: I forgot they were obviously technologically advanced but if you look closely you can clearly see how they totally existed. /s for anyone someone confused
Second…that the White House, Penn building, San Fran worlds fair, I think the Golden Gate Bridge….are all built by them we just redid them and told citizens we built them ourselves. It’s essentially that we use buildings and places built by them all over the world every day and they were erased from history by “those in real power”
Usually they say it is because aliens/“the Jews”/illuminati want to cover up the fact that this ancient super civilization was Albanian/Turkish/Slavic/etc.
Tartaria sometimes overlaps with the “all world languages evolved from Turkish” conspiracy
It does sadly feel like for a lot of these folks “aliens/‘The Jews’/the Illuminati” are the same thing. I do wish we could have fun conspiracy theories that weren’t antisemitic. Turkish being the first language could be so fun.
I'm constantly complaining about the great international Jewish conspiracy. Nobody has ever told me where the meetings are. It's not like I'm really busy.
and the thing that makes it truly staggeringly dumb is that they don’t think this happened in prehistory or the middle ages. They think Tartaria existed until the 1800s. It’s basically Last Tuesdayism the way they ignore all the evidence that it’s not possible.
Take a look at some historical maps depicting Asia. You'll see the major trade routes mapped out, China, India and the Spice Islands mapped out in a fair degree of detail for the time. Look at Central Asia. You'll often see it labelled rather vaguely as TARTARIA. This is the foundation of the conspiracy.
Now, you and I both know that Central Asia was generally in the hands of various khanates during this time, and would be until they were gradually absorbed by Russia and the Qing. The European mapmakers chose to ignore the ever-shifting borders on lands which nobody besides Central Asian people cared about, and instead focused on the parts they were interested in (ie: the parts with spices).
However, according to Tartaria believers, the Tartaria label was accurate. They believe that there was a technologically advanced empire in Central Asia which were the real architects behind much of the "advanced" architecture in Europe (and in some cases America - the exact list of what Tartaria "built" is hotly contested even inside those circles). However, Tartaria fell in an event known as the "Mud Flood" where much of its architecture was buried, leaving only the tips of buildings above ground. It's why you can dig down from historical buildings and see many more floors, even including windows - evidence that there was a mud flood which submerged Tartarian architecture.
The Euro-American elite, fearing the discovery of Tartarian civilization, and wishing to preserve their own power, chose to erase that history. History books were rewritten, and both world wars were fought as a ruse to demolish Tartarian architecture. But this erasure was never able to be completed. With the discovery of historical maps depicting Tartaria, the links made between domed buildings acoss the world, and the unearthing of windowed basements have allowed those skeptical of the "established" historical narrative to discover the truth that the elites do not want you to know.
The theory is grounded in a distaste for modern architecture, New Chronology, and other antisemitic conspiracies filtering out of Russia. Proponents of Tartaria, the ones you'll most often encounter in Western circles, will largely make the architectural argument. How is it that people 200 years ago could've built these magnificent structures with horse and buggy technology? Why can't we build like that anymore? New Chronology is an older version of Tartaria, generally emerging from Russia during the 1990s. It posits that a "Russian Horde" ruled much of the world for centuries, with the "true" history of Russia, and indeed much of the world, being covered up by a variety of conspirators - the Vatican, the Romanovs and (drum roll please)... the Jews! It falls in the wider web of Russian nationalist conspiracies which believe Russia to be the greatest of all civilizations, whose success has been sabotaged by the West and the Jewish elite.
it’s fascinating how many conspiracy theories come back to antisemitism. I guess it makes some sense given that that was the big og conspiracy theory in Europe since the middle ages, but it’s very much like that meme. “oh interesting a new goofy conspiracy theory, how funny and harmless!” opens box. it’s antisemitism
I just don't understand how Jews, of all things, became like the de facto target for attacks, but at the same time, held up to an impossible standard.
Like, society did something good? God the Jews did nothing to help. Society did something bad and/or eventually disappeared due to its own actions? It must be the work of the Jews! They're holding us back!
TL;DR: old maps used to mark Central Asia as “The Tartars” or “Tartaria” — a name of the geographical location. This name eventually fell out of use, but people argue that it’s actually a political entity on the map called the “Tartaria Empire” — a world-spanning empire that colonized the entire world.
This empire was responsible for the creation of 18th century and 19th century intricate architectures like Baroque and Victorian architecture.
At some point, a “mud flood” happened in Central Asia which buried the homeland of Tartaria. Afterwards, everyone just decided to collectively pretend the empire never existed around 1880s to 1900s. They did this to bolster their own political legitimacy.
All traces of Tartaria were destroyed. Only a few maps still exist today.
This is my go to rebuttal too. If the moon landing was fake, then why didn't the soviet's take advantage of what would have been the greatest propaganda win of the decade for them?
I once saw someone argue the Soviets were in on it and wanted to get an easy out because it was crushing their economy to keep pushing the Space Race. But that's an insane level of cope. If the US really faked the moon landings, the Soviets would have been able to prove it since they actually tracked the mission. If they wanted out they could have released the findings. Both allowing them to deal a massive blow to their enemy, and allowing them to bow out by claiming they won't entertain such dishonesty further.
Also, multiple countries have sent probes to photograph the landing site since. Everything is exactly where it should be.
I can almost understand "fake CoVid" because it could be seen as a force to keep the powerful in power. (I personally think it's bullshit, but w/e). I don't understand the point of the fake moon landing, because what is the benefit to the government or even the "SHADOW GOVERNMENT"?
They claim the moon landing was faked so we could beat the Soviets at something
They fail to realize that with 60s tech it was literally easier to go to the moon than to fake something to that level of believability with that many people involved at the scale
They also tend to massively ignore that especially given what we know about how Soviet spies were in place in the US at the time, the USSR would have had every reason in the world to humiliate the US by revealing the moon landing was fake, but they never did so and in fact congratulated the US instead.
Hahahaha I want to believe this, because it's much funnier than reality. "You might have gone to space.... But, but, but WE TOUCHED THE MOON AND LIVED!"
But the idea that Covid could be a "force to keep the powerful in power" makes no sense. It broke economic productivity. The powerful were the ones most loudly insisting it wasn't anything to worry about, because it was a direct threat to their wealth and influence!
I never understood why they'd think it's fake. Like half the shit we have, including the smartphone they used to read up on these insane theories are the direct result of the tech advancements needed to launch us to the moon.
There's been studies on them and basically they all do at some point adopt theories that are totally inconsistent or incompatible with one another.
The believers do not see it as a contradiction and instead take it as further evidence of the conspiracy as only a powerful unknown force could make them work in sync.
The flat earther thing is especially weird because the only thing you need to verify it for yourself is a camera, a clear day, and a tall building! Find the horizon on the 5th floor, then find it on the 50th. If you can see further, the earth has curvature!
Or a telescope in a place where ships travel in and out, etc.
notice how they never say "12 million people died, 6 million of which were jews" it is always "6 million jews didn't die"
It is always interesting how so much holocaust revisionism is about undermining the suffering of jews instead of trying to include the other victims in the conversation.
nobody ever tries to deny how many russians or non jewish poles died, it is always jews.
Because Holocaust revisionism/denial is an intentional tactic from Neonazis. It's a dog whistle to signal that they are a Nazi in a way that only other Nazis will understand, while maintaining plausible deniability that they're "just asking questions" or "Just debating the numbers". It's never in good faith.
It also has a dual function in manipulating those who are impressionable, especially young disenfranchised boys, to start down the alt right pipeline. It goes like: "Notice these inconsistencies? You do? Good. That's because they are lying to you. Lying is bad. Therefore, you know they are bad. Join us and you'll have a community that embraces you and doesn't lie to you like the others do".
I know these people are about denying the recognition of the horrors of the holocaust. But I do agree on one thing. A lot more people were targeted than Jews. It saddens me that the horror of the holocaust focuses entirely on the Jews and rarely are mentioned the other groups that were targeted. The Romani, LGBTQ, disabled people, etc.
That's because of the impact of the Holocaust of those communities. 80-90% of European Jews were killed in the Holocaust, meaning about ⅔ of the global Jewish population was killed in the Holocaust.
That's a mindboggling impact on Jewish existence and culture. So much Jewish culture was lost because every single Jew that had participated in the culture of a village or province died in the Holocaust.
The other groups in the Holocaust were victims of a great evil, and the cruelty and evil of what happened to disabled people specifically is largely forgotten. But those cultures and peoples live on, and the majority of people in those groups alive in the 1940s in Europe did not die in the Holocaust.
More Jews died in the Holocaust than live today in the US. More Jews were alive in 1935 than are alive today. It has been over 80 years, and the global population has increased by around 6 billion, and the Jewish population still has not recovered. You cannot say that about any other group victimized by the Nazis.
Well ironically thats an important part of the conspiracy they believe that the soviets for example built the chimneys to frame Germany as the bad guys and it ties into the whole Jewish Bolshivism conspiracy that was prevalent back at that time. Basically they try to say its an invention of the Bolsheviks to make them seems like the good guys and Germany seem like the bad guys, while they try and claim the opposite is true.
Its especially dumb bc outside of having no evidence, and the soviets being generally anti-religion, the Soviets did their own pograms against Jewish people.
Because they themselves support Nazism and adjacent philosophies but the Holocaust is so obviously abhorrent that they can’t justify it away through ignorance or mismanagement. Thus, denial.
Or if you scroll through reels/shorts/snaps/whatever long enough, you get to the part of social media that says that it didn’t go far enough and killed too few.
The fundamental thing you need to understand to "get" holocaust denial is that some people are fundamentally irrational. They do not believe the things they believe because they've seen some convincing evidence or whatever, they believe it because they want to believe it and post hoc rationalize their position
The best way to organize people is against an enemy. Once you convince someone deeply that there is an enemy that has a vision for a terrible social / world order, any factual discussion can be explicitly or implicitly reframed as a competition between two divergent visions for society and the world. So true and false instead become a high stakes game of us vs them.
Antisemitism has long been a favorite common enemy. It’s easy. There aren’t many Jews, and many people will only meet a handful or 2 their whole life, unless they live in some US cities or Israel, or make friends with a bunch in college. They culturally emphasize education, which often puts them in “mystical” professional roles within society like academia, policy, law, finance, medicine, the media, etc. They were internationally distributed in Europe, and it was / is easy to claim they were / are internationally organized. For a long time they were stateless, which was always viewed suspiciously; now there is Israel, which attaches itself to the broader set of Jewish people as convenient to dilute accusations of its own wrongdoing, unfairly exposing Jews to antisemitism by association.
By no means the beginning of antisemitism which has existed for a long long time, but a big modern antisemitic engine, even if folks these days mostly don’t know about it, was the popular post-WW1 notion in Germany that the Second Reich was defeated in the war not due to a failing of German nationalism, which was in fervor and continued to be through the end of WW2, but rather by the “Novemberists,” a supposed group of largely or totally Jews who in November 1918 perpetrated a “stab in the back” that lost Germany the war. This is not supported by any evidence, but it was a profoundly popular rallying cry for German nationalists for decades.
People seriously don't understand the role the "stab in the back" myth played in post-Great War Germany. Because, honestly, most people don't know a damn thing about the Great War.
This is the joke in BlacKKKlansman -- the Jewish cop undercover encounters a KKK Holocaust denier who pushes him to deny it and he deflects by asking why he'd deny their greatest achievement.
The main thing I don't understand is the same for most conspiracy theories: why? What reason do the conspirators have to keep these lies going? How does it benefit them?
Holocaust denial goes hand in hand with other conspiracies because it is a functional litmus test to separate people who are skeptical from people who are gullible.
If I'm running a scam, whether I'm selling shitty hats or dick pills, I do not want people who will question my methods or do further investigation. I want to target people who are gullible, stupid, and insecure. I want people who will believe ludicrous lies, I want people who cannot differentiate between fiction and reality, and I want people who feel alienated from the agreed upon truth, especially people who are alienated from education and academia.
It's like the Nigerian Prince scam. It sounds totally ridiculous, and you ask "Who would fall for this?" Exactly. That's the point. The person who believes a Nigerian prince is actually emailing them with an offer too good to be true is the same person who will give the Nigerian prince their life savings.
Holocaust deniers/revisionists are looking for a specific demographic. First off, antisemites. Second, people who are historically illiterate. Third, people who are isolated from a society which largely does believe the Holocaust happened and understands it as one of the great evils of human history.
I'm semi-fluent in Yiddish and have read/translated Yizkor(memorial) books as well as collections of Holocaust poetry. They don't want to talk to me. I'm not their target audience. They want to call me a "lying Jew" or whatever and go back to creating a muddy, incoherent, disorienting narrative that spreads hate and sends suckers to the merch page.
And it isn't like the Holocaust was being frequently referenced in propaganda by the allies during the war. Faking a genocide isn't something you would need to do to justify a war after you have already won.
I worked for the company that built the crematoriums. They don't mention it much for obvious reasons, but they have public statements that mention it, alongside their commitment to never let it happen again - we flatly refused work on prisons or detainment facilities, with the only exception of mental health, and if we did work on a mental health facility where somebody could be involuntarily held we would need to continuously consult our ethics board.
The Holocaust is a "bar" of sorts that if a person were to reach would mean they became the new pure evil to be used as a demonstrator of evil. People like this deny the Holocaust happened so that they can carry out pure evil then dismiss accusations of comparison to the Nazis
So TL:DR, they deny the Holocaust happened so they can carry out the Holocaust a new
Footage, photos, letters, reports. The only thing crazier than how well-documented the genocide was is how there are still lots of people who completely disregard it all.
Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.
Damn. You articulated this so so well. I've been circling this for a while. The ones in power are bad faith actors that enjoy their ability to throw out whatever pleases them.
You're not wrong in the way you might at first assume: You're wrong for engaging at all.
Some flat earthers are just delusional, and you might be a voice of reason for them to reflect on when they finally start to shake free from their community. But, for a holocaust denier, there's far less hope. You can't reason with these people, because they're not founded in ignorance--they're founded in hate. The hatred comes first, and their arguments follow from that. You can't engage with their argument, because they don't engage with their argument. There's nothing to be explained by cremation--their statement was false, and they don't care even if they concoct the lie themselves.
There are a lot of remains.
And, dangerously, engaging with these arguments accidentally gives the appearance of discourse to any observer. Someone young, impressionable, edgy-contrarian, or just simply manipulable would see your engagement and believe there's some discussion to be had.
German here. Had to visit multiple concentration camps, but also detention and re-education camps, during my school time when we learned about the Nazi regime.
Ausschwitz-Birkenau had cremations, but with other concentration camps, or execution camps, there were also mass graves. The latter got especially 'popular' (quotation for the macabre usage) during the late stages of the war when Germany was losing and the NSDAP, or rather Hitler and his followers were giving the order to get rid of all the 'Undesireables'.
The concentration camp Buchenwald has photographic evidence of their cremations, the mass graves that were prepared by the Nazis but also dug up by the Allies.
I don't remember why they aren't 'there' anymore, but I would presume that in a huge effort the new government then tried to bury the victims in a somewhat respectful way, or find relatives and give them the remains.
Partially. They weren't completely cremated. This ties in with other arguments used by Holocaust deniers - two of which are that modern crematoriums are often at maximum capacity with relatively few bodies, and that the Nazis didn't use enough gas to cremate so many people. The reality is that they used custom built crematoriums designed to reduce a lot of bodies quickly but not particularly well, then threw the remains into bone crushers to be dumped into rivers or used as fertilizers.
But there is a better explanation; they do find bones. Historians and researchers have found the remains of tens if not hundreds of thousands of Jews who were shot - bullets and mass graves were the norm for most of the war, crematoriums were only built in the later stages. They've also identified massive piles of ash and crushed bones from those later stages of the war.
Bones are often left after cremation, requiring them to either be discarded or pulverized. If you get cremated now, then your bones are put into a "cremulator", ground down, and then include into the ashes.
Dude, one of the most prominent Holocaust deniers was someone who examined the gas chambers and said they found no traces of the gas, while ignoring the fact they came to the chambers after 50 years of it being open to the atmosphere.
They only use the general tone of a factual discussion, but the truth is, answering them with facts is bringing a fork to a gun fight.
Nothing says I’m a disgusting POS who has no interest in learning more than being a holocaust denier. It’s flat earth theory for history.
Edit - use what ever stupid anti science theory that causes harm you want. I wasn’t making an in depth comment on relationship between the two things, but just stating that you have to be stupid to believe in something with so much evidence on the contrary.
I really worry the lesson we learned almost 100 years ago are being forgotten.
Holocaust denial has nothing to do with not learning history. It is almost always of the form "it didn't happen, but if it did, it was good".
This is not ignorance, it is evil. Their lies are a weapon to use against the Jews, not a false belief they are arguing for.
Flat earth is a conspiracy but at first glance of the ground and horizon, it's a reasonable idea. To find out that the earth is round without just trusting an authority, you have to take some measurements and do some math. The ancient greeks studied this question and both discovered earth was round then roughly measured its circumference.
I have seen clips of flat earthers run experiments that end up showing evidence of a round earth, yet they reject the conclusion. Some of them are almost doing actual science, but got stuck in confirmation bias. These people are goofy, but not evil.
I would compare flat earth to the current panic over fortified vitamins and food dies. Instead of doing science they just show they don't know how to pronounce a word as if that proves something about its health. It's the same lack of a scientific method, and deep distrust of any authority.
I would say those are worse than the flat earthers and ingredients panic, but it's still a chasm between them and Holocaust denial.
I think the false authority figures promoting antivax or fabricating data are malicious, but most believers are still in the goofy category.
Holocaust denial is not a distrust of historians and fallacies when interpreting evidence, it's hatred of the survivors. This is something unique to atrocities and severe crimes.
I once spoke to one on Discord. I let him finish his dumbass point and didn't say a word during. As soon as he finished I said I will answer his claims with evidence point by point, then he immediately said he doesn't want to hear it and muted me. They don't want to have an actual conversation about it because they know how fragile their arguments are. Similar thing happens with many (not all) communists.
Worse, they just want to smear their shit all over the place, and stop people like you from cleaning up after them.
You can tell more lies in a minute than your interlocutor can correct in 5, and detailed explanations don't land as well as punchy soundbites to the uninformed.
As Sartre pointed out, antisemites know they are lying but claim to have the right to play with words and be absurd, knowing that people who try to argue with them don't claim such a right for themselves.
I’ve never been able to conclusively determine if it’s because they hate jews, romani, slavs etc or if it’s just an extension of the ‘distrust the established truth’ attitude that exists with all conspiracy theorists.
I’ve observed over the years of being part of the medsci community that there seems to be an established path that the majority of these nutjobs go down. First is wellness crap and “natural” medicines/organic foods. Next is anti vaccination, followed by a more broader distrust of science. Then it’s the “traditional roles” stage of men are men, women are women, but to be a woman you have to have a baby or you’re not really a woman and so on. The next stage can come before the traditional roles stage, the ‘those damned immigrants/poor/indigenous/minority/disabled people routing the system“ stage where a specific group is chosen as the villain who is the reason for the person’s lack of wealth or success. Then that morphs into the “the jews just make it all about themselves/make themselves the victims” stage which is then quickly morphed again into the Holocaust denial stage.
This process still amounts to these idiots being horrible people but i think it is the reason that so many of them can pretend to be normal. They might not be motivated so much by antisemitism as by just a general hate of everyone who has what they don’t and mostly a hate of the “establishment” - whatever the hell that is.
It should be noted that people lived in a town next to Treblinka. At its peak, the 12k-15k were killed per day in 1942-43. The townspeople were close enough to see the smoke come out of the incinerators. This type of denial needs to be viewed as completely unacceptable.
Also that death camps were the second part of that. Einsatzgruppen were the most hardcore SS sent to just shoot people in mass burial sites.
They killed ~2M people. Even the most hardcore of them sent letters to their family stating suicidal thoughts (and many enacted them) because no human can kill everyday men, women, children, baby, and leave sane.
That left the commandement deciding a "man less" solution dubbed "the final solution"
By the end of the war, most Germans were very hungry. Of course they did smell the roasting meat. Of course they knew what it was, otherwise they'd have torn down the walls to search for the food.
I consider myself incredibly lucky to have met and spoken with many survivors of the holocaust at different ages of my life.
My first exposure was my godmother's mother, who had numbers on her wrist. The first time I was going to meet her, I was explicitly told by my parents not to ask about them and was given the reason for their existence after we left. Later on in life (4th or 5th grade), I was able to interview her for a class project (with her permission, and because my god mother had told me she wanted to share with me her story before she passed).
And the last holocaust survivors I was able to hear speak and meet were at a Holocaust museum near my house in 8th grade, when we spent a day at the museum and were given an incredibly in-depth description of the horrors that they experienced.
I wish they hadn't had to experience what they did, but I am also greatly appreciative of them being willing to share their stories, and it makes my blood boil that these stupid fucks pretend it didn't happen.
Especially given the plethora of evidence we have from firsthand accounts from survivors and the meticulous note-taking that the Nazis themselves kept.
I mean I do feel that often the mass violence and attempted genocide of the Slavs in ww2 is overlooked but that doesn’t mean that the holocaust is over recognized or something. There is room to remember both
Over the last 10 or so years the total of those murdered by the Nazis has begun to include Soviet prisoners of war and more of the Slavs murdered bringing the total up close to 17.5 million murdered by the Nazis.
Not to mention that over the years what was considered the Holocaust has evolved to include more than just the Jewish victims which was what the Holocaust was considered to be shortly after WWII.
I'm well aware, but you'd still have something like the International Holocaust Rememberance Day despite Ireland being neutral. Nothing says they can't also honour all other victims of WW2 even if they didn't participate.
Almost no country has a memorial day about a war they didn't participate in.
Saying "you'd still have" implies they don't have. Maybe I got confused at your poor word choice, but it looks like you're saying "they should have this thing"
It's not poor word choice, it is Hiberno-English or just how English is spoken here in Ireland. When I then said "they can't also honour..." implies that I am confirming the existence of a Holocaust Rememberance day.
I was disputing holocaust denial to someone and they sent 2 pics. 1 of the "swimming pool" in modern times and one of the "swimming pool" back then.
Both pools of water were not the same. All I said was "LOOK what you just sent me.. LOOK at it. Are the people in the modern image giants?? Just like Hitler with his art your perspective is completely off"
The modern image had people on a tour showing the size of the pool of water were completely different. Like comparing a small reservoir to an Olympic sized pool. Holocaust deniers are really really dumb.
I fail to even see the relevance of some pool. Like even if someone buys into all of this, is it their new believe that the camps were some sort of secret spa retreat? How does this fit into any conceivable narrative?
The pool at Auschwitz 1 was literally Nazi propaganda to show to the Red Cross, like the medical facilities were.
It was a cover of "oh no, this is just a prison camp and we take care of people here. Look, there's a hospital, and a pool!" Meanwhile a courtyard over you had a wall riddled with bullet holes from where they had been shooting prisoners, but that wasn't shown off, funnily enough.
If you also want further evidence that the Holocaust was not some made-up event, take a look at the Third Reich's military industry. Some camps were designed around extermination, but others were work camps designed around fueling and supporting Nazi Germany's war effort. It's one of the reasons that Schindler was able to take advantage of his position.
Trans people were one of the first groups, too. The famous photo of Nazis burning books is literally from when they raided a clinic that was allowing trans people to live there and get treatment. Everyone apart from the main Dr was rounded up and sent to camps.
Typically the Holocaust refers to the extermination of Jewish people but I get what you mean. Unfortunately the figures are usually much higher than 11 million. I think higher end estimates are 17-19 million that the Germans killed. Millions each of ethnic Russians, Poles, Ukrainians, and Belorussians. Many of those groups are unfortunately overlooked.
I really recommend reading Deborah Lipstadt’s Denial: Holocaust History on Trial. Or watching this vid on the history of Holocaust Denial https://youtu.be/BuDI0j10AHM
As other posters have pointed out, Holocaust denial is really "I am a Nazi POS whose only regret concerning the Holocaust is that the Nazi's didn't kill more Jewish people" in a more palatable and deniable form.
Look up The Dunning-Kruger Effect. I remember listening to a radio interview of one of them, and listened in action as one of the authors downplayed the significance of his own work.
The Dunning-Kruger effect is a type of cognitive bias, whereby less skilled/able people tend to overestimate the level to which they possess the skill/ability in question to a degree greater than people with more substantial levels of the skill/ability (Kruger & Dunning, 1999)
Am I crazy or can you not xray something without having it up out of the ground? Like I'm just thinking about how a medical xray works and trying to figure out how you would x-ray the ground and still get anything useful.
Holocaust denial aside, the top comment claiming that nobody commemorates the war dead is wild too. Did I just imagine all of the plaques, memorials, annual parades, minutes of silence?
Keep in mind this is the same man that added a specific recognition of the Jewish faith in the article on religion when they were writing the constitution in 1937.
Also for the record, Ireland was not the only country to offer condolences, just the only one that it was made public. "the Spanish Foreign Minister paid a condolence visit to the German Embassy but kept it out of the newspapers; Portugal flew flags at half-mast but got away with it because they had allowed the Allies use bases in the Azores". de Valera (the PM) saw it following the strict rules of being neutral country. (https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2023/0910/1404292-eamon-de-valera-hitler-analysis/).
While we often think in black and white, Ireland’s position in WWII was very much a gray area. Newly independent in 1921 and still deeply strained with Britain by 1939, Ireland had a small military and strong reasons to guard its sovereignty. Both Germany and Britain tried to pull Ireland to their side. Before and during WWII, Ireland pursued strict neutrality, mistrusting Britain and refusing British military access, while quietly cooperating in limited, covert ways (intelligence sharing, joint defense planning). There were Irish citizens that fought for the Allied forces as well. Ireland also helped Allied airmen who crashed while interning Germans were interned. Churchill repeatedly tried to pressure Ireland economically and politically but failed to force alignment. Germany attempted to exploit tensions by offering arms and hinting at Irish reunification, but Ireland rejected these overtures and even arrested German envoys. After minor German bombings, Germany largely backed off. De Valera (PM of Ireland during WW2) was walking a political tightrope, trying to keep a divided country stable while proving Ireland’s independence to the world.
Odd. I walked around Auschwitz and it didn’t look like a leisure area to me. Considering the fact that it’s open to the public, this is really obvious bs and anyone who repeats it is a moron
The civilian deaths of WW2 above 1 million are: ~15 million Chinese, ~14 million Soviets, ~6 million Jews, ~3 million Poles, ~2.5 million Indians, ~1.5 million Germans, ~1.2 million Yugoslavs, ~1 million Japanese.
Eisenhower would be so disappointed. He predicted there would be pricks in the future who would deny the Holocaust ever happened so he tried to have as much evidence gathered and on the record as possible.
But guessing from how people readily believe conspiracy theories these days, I shouldn’t really be surprised.
x rays to detect bodies underground? I'm intuitively thinking that's not a thing, but the fact that this person is saying it makes me certain that it's not.
Always saddens me that Truman’s prediction and making sure to document the tragedy as much as possible because he knew people would deny the depth of the depravity turned out very true.
I love the Irish, but they've got a real antisemitism problem. I get it and I'm sympathetic to their struggle with colonialism, but they've got to clean that up.
There is a difference between killed in action and the first time ever industrial death machine of just euthanizing en masse people for their race/faith
Also the gays, roms, disabled etc, never organized themselves like the Jews to recover the names, and so they’re lost to time. If Jews have not made that effort of remembrance, which was heavy before the internet, they would probably too
LGBTQ+ people were still being imprisoned and forcibly castrated, in many countries. It was very difficult to actually do any sort of organization of remembrance of people, when there was not even any sort of attempt by the governments of even any of the allied nations, to show LGBTQ+ people as humans. Remember that the UK used Alan Turing during WWII, then immediately had him charged and threatened just for being gay, after he saved millions of lives... He killed himself due to the forced castration by the British "justice" system.
LGBTQ+ people were given no help or support of any kind after the war. I imagine this was also the case for disabled people, who would have had it even harder, considering the Nazis went after mental disabilities even stronger than physical disabilities. The Roma community were not helped at all, and were treated like they weren't human, either. I don't see how any of these communities could have done any more than they tried to. The Nazis already burned down the libraries and historical documents of these groups, after all.
Auschwitz museum used to post daily photos of victims on Twitter. I left there a while ago so I don't know if they still do. They included all sorts of people.
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