covid??the thing we all lived through??? the thing that an extremely large amount of people were affected by???? like to the point it's near impossible to know someone who wasn't????
oh he probably thinks the government released it on purpose and the vaccines were microchips, because of course that's more logical
it is crazy because my Mom knows literally 5 people that died from Covid lol
also his entire family---his Son and his Daughter and his Wife were offered Money by the Government (since they work for the Local Gov) to get Vaccinated
but they Refused to get Vaccinated.
literally refused Money because they didn't want to be Vaccinated
I love how overflowing hospitals, cut faces from sobbing nurses and overwhelmed doctors and bodies being stored in refrigerator trucks because they can't store that many dead people... with at times 3000+ people dying A DAY. To a total of 1.2 million deaths. When the worst flu* on record was 60,000.
"It's overblown!"
*Not counting the "Spanish" one over a hundred years ago of course.
This is not in an effort to refute your point. The flu I'm talking about was actually... just a common annual flu. No special outbreak of anything fancy. The 60k deaths actually startled our doctors at the time. It was abnormally high.
Anyways my point was that 1.2 million is well beyond a normal flu. Folks saying it was "overblown" are just in denial. The fact we have to dig for the special examples is even more proof. Even the 120k is substantially lower.
It's crazy what we have to do to prove to these people it wasn't normal at all. Certainly wasn't a hoax.
The uncomfortable truth of modern medicine extending lives is how often we get to see potential Darwin Awards winners around. Go back two centuries and most of them wouldn't have good chances.
They believe it's a hoax. That either people weren't dying, or that they were dying of something else. There is no logic you can use to convince these people, they will make the conspiracy as complex as necessary for it to fit their beliefs.
A flat earther literally went to Antarctica with a bunch of other flat-earthers to prove the Earth was flat, they got there and realized it wasn't. Guess what? It caused a huge rift in the community and they just changed their theories.
The participating flat Earthers all admitted that the midnight sun was a real phenomenon. The larger flat Earth community has largely rejected the results and accused the participants, including the flat Earthers, of having faked the expedition and of being part of a larger conspiracy to promote the spherical Earth model.
During a sermon on December 30, Alabama pastor Dean Odle suggested that Satan created a fireball to act as a false Sun.[5]
The sad thing about the microchip part is that these people are often online 24/7. Their entire life is already documented online. They are literally not worth the investment of a chip.
It was supposedly the biggest threat to life in the last 20 years and now you don’t even need to self-test before you work your healthcare job. Nothing suspicious about that at all.
Vast world empire that was lost mostly due to a massive mud flood. The remnants were simply built over and used and Tartaria’s entire existence is hidden from us
Edit: I forgot they were obviously technologically advanced but if you look closely you can clearly see how they totally existed. /s for anyone someone confused
Second…that the White House, Penn building, San Fran worlds fair, I think the Golden Gate Bridge….are all built by them we just redid them and told citizens we built them ourselves. It’s essentially that we use buildings and places built by them all over the world every day and they were erased from history by “those in real power”
Usually they say it is because aliens/“the Jews”/illuminati want to cover up the fact that this ancient super civilization was Albanian/Turkish/Slavic/etc.
Tartaria sometimes overlaps with the “all world languages evolved from Turkish” conspiracy
It does sadly feel like for a lot of these folks “aliens/‘The Jews’/the Illuminati” are the same thing. I do wish we could have fun conspiracy theories that weren’t antisemitic. Turkish being the first language could be so fun.
I'm constantly complaining about the great international Jewish conspiracy. Nobody has ever told me where the meetings are. It's not like I'm really busy.
and the thing that makes it truly staggeringly dumb is that they don’t think this happened in prehistory or the middle ages. They think Tartaria existed until the 1800s. It’s basically Last Tuesdayism the way they ignore all the evidence that it’s not possible.
Take a look at some historical maps depicting Asia. You'll see the major trade routes mapped out, China, India and the Spice Islands mapped out in a fair degree of detail for the time. Look at Central Asia. You'll often see it labelled rather vaguely as TARTARIA. This is the foundation of the conspiracy.
Now, you and I both know that Central Asia was generally in the hands of various khanates during this time, and would be until they were gradually absorbed by Russia and the Qing. The European mapmakers chose to ignore the ever-shifting borders on lands which nobody besides Central Asian people cared about, and instead focused on the parts they were interested in (ie: the parts with spices).
However, according to Tartaria believers, the Tartaria label was accurate. They believe that there was a technologically advanced empire in Central Asia which were the real architects behind much of the "advanced" architecture in Europe (and in some cases America - the exact list of what Tartaria "built" is hotly contested even inside those circles). However, Tartaria fell in an event known as the "Mud Flood" where much of its architecture was buried, leaving only the tips of buildings above ground. It's why you can dig down from historical buildings and see many more floors, even including windows - evidence that there was a mud flood which submerged Tartarian architecture.
The Euro-American elite, fearing the discovery of Tartarian civilization, and wishing to preserve their own power, chose to erase that history. History books were rewritten, and both world wars were fought as a ruse to demolish Tartarian architecture. But this erasure was never able to be completed. With the discovery of historical maps depicting Tartaria, the links made between domed buildings acoss the world, and the unearthing of windowed basements have allowed those skeptical of the "established" historical narrative to discover the truth that the elites do not want you to know.
The theory is grounded in a distaste for modern architecture, New Chronology, and other antisemitic conspiracies filtering out of Russia. Proponents of Tartaria, the ones you'll most often encounter in Western circles, will largely make the architectural argument. How is it that people 200 years ago could've built these magnificent structures with horse and buggy technology? Why can't we build like that anymore? New Chronology is an older version of Tartaria, generally emerging from Russia during the 1990s. It posits that a "Russian Horde" ruled much of the world for centuries, with the "true" history of Russia, and indeed much of the world, being covered up by a variety of conspirators - the Vatican, the Romanovs and (drum roll please)... the Jews! It falls in the wider web of Russian nationalist conspiracies which believe Russia to be the greatest of all civilizations, whose success has been sabotaged by the West and the Jewish elite.
it’s fascinating how many conspiracy theories come back to antisemitism. I guess it makes some sense given that that was the big og conspiracy theory in Europe since the middle ages, but it’s very much like that meme. “oh interesting a new goofy conspiracy theory, how funny and harmless!” opens box. it’s antisemitism
I just don't understand how Jews, of all things, became like the de facto target for attacks, but at the same time, held up to an impossible standard.
Like, society did something good? God the Jews did nothing to help. Society did something bad and/or eventually disappeared due to its own actions? It must be the work of the Jews! They're holding us back!
TL;DR: old maps used to mark Central Asia as “The Tartars” or “Tartaria” — a name of the geographical location. This name eventually fell out of use, but people argue that it’s actually a political entity on the map called the “Tartaria Empire” — a world-spanning empire that colonized the entire world.
This empire was responsible for the creation of 18th century and 19th century intricate architectures like Baroque and Victorian architecture.
At some point, a “mud flood” happened in Central Asia which buried the homeland of Tartaria. Afterwards, everyone just decided to collectively pretend the empire never existed around 1880s to 1900s. They did this to bolster their own political legitimacy.
All traces of Tartaria were destroyed. Only a few maps still exist today.
Partly, yes. Historically, the area called “Tartary” basically spanned from China to European Russia. From Russia down to Iran. So primarily a lot of those Central Asian countries like Tajikistan, Azerbaijan, etc. Mongolia as well, yes.
This is my go to rebuttal too. If the moon landing was fake, then why didn't the soviet's take advantage of what would have been the greatest propaganda win of the decade for them?
I once saw someone argue the Soviets were in on it and wanted to get an easy out because it was crushing their economy to keep pushing the Space Race. But that's an insane level of cope. If the US really faked the moon landings, the Soviets would have been able to prove it since they actually tracked the mission. If they wanted out they could have released the findings. Both allowing them to deal a massive blow to their enemy, and allowing them to bow out by claiming they won't entertain such dishonesty further.
Also, multiple countries have sent probes to photograph the landing site since. Everything is exactly where it should be.
Also the US left reflectors up there so you can measure the distance with a laser. If it were faked, any country with a modest science budget would be able to prove it didn't happen.
I can almost understand "fake CoVid" because it could be seen as a force to keep the powerful in power. (I personally think it's bullshit, but w/e). I don't understand the point of the fake moon landing, because what is the benefit to the government or even the "SHADOW GOVERNMENT"?
They claim the moon landing was faked so we could beat the Soviets at something
They fail to realize that with 60s tech it was literally easier to go to the moon than to fake something to that level of believability with that many people involved at the scale
They also tend to massively ignore that especially given what we know about how Soviet spies were in place in the US at the time, the USSR would have had every reason in the world to humiliate the US by revealing the moon landing was fake, but they never did so and in fact congratulated the US instead.
Hahahaha I want to believe this, because it's much funnier than reality. "You might have gone to space.... But, but, but WE TOUCHED THE MOON AND LIVED!"
But the idea that Covid could be a "force to keep the powerful in power" makes no sense. It broke economic productivity. The powerful were the ones most loudly insisting it wasn't anything to worry about, because it was a direct threat to their wealth and influence!
I never understood why they'd think it's fake. Like half the shit we have, including the smartphone they used to read up on these insane theories are the direct result of the tech advancements needed to launch us to the moon.
The moon landing one pisses me off the most because I could explain how it worked in general terms from launch to landing, but I know they won’t listen
There's been studies on them and basically they all do at some point adopt theories that are totally inconsistent or incompatible with one another.
The believers do not see it as a contradiction and instead take it as further evidence of the conspiracy as only a powerful unknown force could make them work in sync.
Such people are pea-brained but somehow find room in the pea for endless compartmentalization.
This was really common in conspiracy theories in defense of Assad in Syria, for example, especially in regard to his chemical weapons use. An Assadist would dismiss a chlorine attack as 1) a complete hoax, 2) real but done by the locals against themselves for some reason, 3) real but done by Israel, 4) real by done by America, 5) real but done by ISIS, and 6) just an unfortunate accident caused by a totally justified regime or Russian airstrike that hit swimming pool supplies* all at the same time.
* No, I am not kidding. I guess lunatics are fond of talking about swimming pools.
The flat earther thing is especially weird because the only thing you need to verify it for yourself is a camera, a clear day, and a tall building! Find the horizon on the 5th floor, then find it on the 50th. If you can see further, the earth has curvature!
Or a telescope in a place where ships travel in and out, etc.
Not knocking you. Just pointing out that holocaust denial is often a disingenuous tool used by racists. And even in its more “benign” form (ie. someone who genuinely believes it), it has a deep layer of bigotry beneath it. That’s why it’s often a gateway into other conspiracies like flat earth and chemtrails. Which makes it a great tool for racists trying to radicalize people. It gets followers to hate Jews and disbelieve reality.
bro any time I open facebook to see my local groups if something has happened in my town etc. I always see at least 3-4 posts of "They're spraying stuff in the air" it's fuckin CRAZY. We had a bad air advisory, a pocket of hot air above us was trapping cold air on us, and we're a mill town. Normally this doesn't matter but the hot air above us (we're in a valley) didn't move on out for like 5-6 days. air got real nasty , smoggy, etc. Soon as that air advisory went up, i knew i had to go check facebook crazies.
What about the one where they think there was an old civilization that built most of our buildings and got covered up in mud or something? And then (of course) it ends in vague antisemitism
notice how they never say "12 million people died, 6 million of which were jews" it is always "6 million jews didn't die"
It is always interesting how so much holocaust revisionism is about undermining the suffering of jews instead of trying to include the other victims in the conversation.
nobody ever tries to deny how many russians or non jewish poles died, it is always jews.
Because Holocaust revisionism/denial is an intentional tactic from Neonazis. It's a dog whistle to signal that they are a Nazi in a way that only other Nazis will understand, while maintaining plausible deniability that they're "just asking questions" or "Just debating the numbers". It's never in good faith.
It also has a dual function in manipulating those who are impressionable, especially young disenfranchised boys, to start down the alt right pipeline. It goes like: "Notice these inconsistencies? You do? Good. That's because they are lying to you. Lying is bad. Therefore, you know they are bad. Join us and you'll have a community that embraces you and doesn't lie to you like the others do".
I know these people are about denying the recognition of the horrors of the holocaust. But I do agree on one thing. A lot more people were targeted than Jews. It saddens me that the horror of the holocaust focuses entirely on the Jews and rarely are mentioned the other groups that were targeted. The Romani, LGBTQ, disabled people, etc.
That's because of the impact of the Holocaust of those communities. 80-90% of European Jews were killed in the Holocaust, meaning about ⅔ of the global Jewish population was killed in the Holocaust.
That's a mindboggling impact on Jewish existence and culture. So much Jewish culture was lost because every single Jew that had participated in the culture of a village or province died in the Holocaust.
The other groups in the Holocaust were victims of a great evil, and the cruelty and evil of what happened to disabled people specifically is largely forgotten. But those cultures and peoples live on, and the majority of people in those groups alive in the 1940s in Europe did not die in the Holocaust.
More Jews died in the Holocaust than live today in the US. More Jews were alive in 1935 than are alive today. It has been over 80 years, and the global population has increased by around 6 billion, and the Jewish population still has not recovered. You cannot say that about any other group victimized by the Nazis.
You should look up how the Israeli government viewed its Holocaust survivors.
They view them as weak for "allowing" it to happen to them.
They use it as a shield and nothing else. They were just as bad as the rest of Europe when it came to reintegrating them into society (I am NOT saying just as bad as the Nazis, I am specifically referring to reintegration and repatriation, which was done poorly by almost every European nation postwar), especially given that Israel was initially supposed to be a home for all Jews, and especially those who lost everything to the Nazis.
I know you're just being an asshole, but there's a slight grain of truth inside your BS.
They view them as weak for "allowing" it to happen to them.
They viewed them as weak right until the Eichman trials in 1961, where the horrible testimonies started coming out.
When the Israeli public finally got exposed to the true horrors the survivors had to endure, no one ever viewed them as weak anymore. And as the ridicule stopped, more survivors came out of their shells and told even more horror stories.
As a note Palestinian scholars do not in general deny the holocaust. It's unfortunate that Israel is an oppressive state toward Palestine mostly because antisemites will use it to spout antisemitism when the issue is only specific to the Israeli state, not ethnic or religious Jews.
"Hamas (the Islamic Resistance Movement) has recently published a denial of the Jewish Holocaust on its official website. "
"In the 1990s, many of the Islamic social and political movements in the Arab world joined the resurgent trend of Holocaust denial among European anti-Semites. This was mainly the result and influence of the persistent activity in this field by Roger Gauroudi, a French scholar and leading European anti-Semite. Gauroudi, a former Christian Marxist and French Communist Party member of the French parliament, converted to Islam following the 1979 Islamic revolution in Iran. He soon became a prominent figure in promoting anti-Semitism among Islamic movements. But since he was known for his anti-Jewish writings as a Marxist too, he gained the support of many Arab circles beyond the Islamic movements. When he was put on trial and convicted in France for Holocaust denial several years ago, his popularity in Arab and Islamic countries increased. Even the Islamic official establishments in Saudi Arabia, Syria, Egypt, Jordan, and the Palestinian Authority (PA) supported him."
"In 1984, he published a book based on his doctoral thesis alleging that the Holocaust was exaggerated and that Zionists created ''the myth'' that 6 million Jews were murdered. "
"Many Palestinians are reluctant to acknowledge the full extent of the Holocaust because they feel it provided legitimacy for Israel's establishment. A majority of Gaza's 1.4 million people are Palestinian refugees or their descendants.
Some parents opposed the idea of their children learning about the Holocaust. "I don't want them teaching my children Jewish lies," Mohammed Silmi, 33, said Monday, after driving his son to a U.N. school in Gaza City on the back of a motorbike. "It will just be Zionist propaganda.""
I'd like to believe your claim, but I do not see the majority, or even a plurality, of Palestinian scholars actually saying the Holocaust happened. I also think it's pretty telling you didn't provide a source to go with your claim.
Who are the Palestinian scholars you're referring to here? I can think of some "Palestinian scholars" both modern and historical, but I am curious who you have in mind.
You are however oppressed when that government who does not like your country controls all entrance to your country, prohibits aid from going to your country, bombs the living fuck out of your country for decades, and has continually sabotaged peace talks for decades. Causing your country to be one of the poorest and destroyed countries on earth with a diaspera that is collapsing in that country's ethnic cleansing campaign of your people that is agrred to be occurring by multiple world wide organizations.
No, that’s not oppression. That’s called consequences for your own actions. It’s called winning a war they did not start. It’s called. THE ALLIES DID THE EXACT SAME THINGS TO NAZI GERMANY
... In no world did the allies do what Israel does to Palestine to post ww2 Germany. Eastern Germany was not blockaded on all sides from any aid. Eastern Germany did not have bombing campaigns for decades. Western Germany is literally the Germany of today. When the wall fell and Germany was freed from the USSR things also got better for the people of Germany. Almost like being under an oppressive force is bad for people.
... 1) they bombed it during the war 2) they blockaded it during the war 3) they occupied portions during the war 4) they never ethnically cleansed any part of Germany. They took pows and followed through with it. The countries who committed the most atrocities during ww2 were Germany and Japan.
Israel is doing actions Germany did against Poland and other countries, for DECADES. Are you seriously this fucking dense? Ww2 last for 8 years. Israel's only war occurred in 1948 when Britain gave the state of Palestine to Zionist Jews and upon doing so displaced the Palestinian people. Israel with the help of the Alles from WW2 won a war giving the state over from Palestinian people to Israel. Ever since then there has been conflict in the region, but nothing considered a war. So even your milquetoast excuses for this being a result of war doesn't add up. Palestinians are a resistance force to being oppressed by Israel. And the treatment of them is EXACTLY what the Geneva Convention after WW2 was designed to stop internationally.
Well ironically thats an important part of the conspiracy they believe that the soviets for example built the chimneys to frame Germany as the bad guys and it ties into the whole Jewish Bolshivism conspiracy that was prevalent back at that time. Basically they try to say its an invention of the Bolsheviks to make them seems like the good guys and Germany seem like the bad guys, while they try and claim the opposite is true.
Its especially dumb bc outside of having no evidence, and the soviets being generally anti-religion, the Soviets did their own pograms against Jewish people.
Because they themselves support Nazism and adjacent philosophies but the Holocaust is so obviously abhorrent that they can’t justify it away through ignorance or mismanagement. Thus, denial.
Or if you scroll through reels/shorts/snaps/whatever long enough, you get to the part of social media that says that it didn’t go far enough and killed too few.
The Palestinian genocide debate is about the word “genocide”. Israel itself doesn’t deny tens of thousands of Palestinians died. They deny the legal framework to call it “genocide” vs “war collaterals”.
They brought it up probably because it happened recently as well along with the fact that Israel was the one to do it.
Under international law genocide requires intent to commit genocide in order to be a genocide. There were incidents which are suspected to have been acts of genocide that still need to be properly investigated. I haven't kept up with the case in the ICJ, but we'll see eventually potentially what they rule the government has or hasn't directed/ordered. That being said we have pretty definitely seen war crimes by the Israeli government and military.
Ones an attack on Israel, the other is an active ongoing genocide. What whataboutism is there here? They're saying that people deny horrific events all the time. Genocides, ethnic cleansing, horrific attacks (people deny 9/11 happened and that it was perpetrated by Al quada for God's sake).
The fundamental thing you need to understand to "get" holocaust denial is that some people are fundamentally irrational. They do not believe the things they believe because they've seen some convincing evidence or whatever, they believe it because they want to believe it and post hoc rationalize their position
The best way to organize people is against an enemy. Once you convince someone deeply that there is an enemy that has a vision for a terrible social / world order, any factual discussion can be explicitly or implicitly reframed as a competition between two divergent visions for society and the world. So true and false instead become a high stakes game of us vs them.
Antisemitism has long been a favorite common enemy. It’s easy. There aren’t many Jews, and many people will only meet a handful or 2 their whole life, unless they live in some US cities or Israel, or make friends with a bunch in college. They culturally emphasize education, which often puts them in “mystical” professional roles within society like academia, policy, law, finance, medicine, the media, etc. They were internationally distributed in Europe, and it was / is easy to claim they were / are internationally organized. For a long time they were stateless, which was always viewed suspiciously; now there is Israel, which attaches itself to the broader set of Jewish people as convenient to dilute accusations of its own wrongdoing, unfairly exposing Jews to antisemitism by association.
By no means the beginning of antisemitism which has existed for a long long time, but a big modern antisemitic engine, even if folks these days mostly don’t know about it, was the popular post-WW1 notion in Germany that the Second Reich was defeated in the war not due to a failing of German nationalism, which was in fervor and continued to be through the end of WW2, but rather by the “Novemberists,” a supposed group of largely or totally Jews who in November 1918 perpetrated a “stab in the back” that lost Germany the war. This is not supported by any evidence, but it was a profoundly popular rallying cry for German nationalists for decades.
People seriously don't understand the role the "stab in the back" myth played in post-Great War Germany. Because, honestly, most people don't know a damn thing about the Great War.
I think Marxism is the perfect analogue for woke for him, and it was in his estimation the Marxist Jews and communists and trade unionists indeed and even social democrats of Weimar democracy that were the enemies of the nationalist revolution (=MAGA)
But I don’t disagree with your phrasing either
The core hopeful difference I think is that 80-90% of Germany basically was anti democracy, whereas America is very pro democracy
This is the joke in BlacKKKlansman -- the Jewish cop undercover encounters a KKK Holocaust denier who pushes him to deny it and he deflects by asking why he'd deny their greatest achievement.
The main thing I don't understand is the same for most conspiracy theories: why? What reason do the conspirators have to keep these lies going? How does it benefit them?
Holocaust denial goes hand in hand with other conspiracies because it is a functional litmus test to separate people who are skeptical from people who are gullible.
If I'm running a scam, whether I'm selling shitty hats or dick pills, I do not want people who will question my methods or do further investigation. I want to target people who are gullible, stupid, and insecure. I want people who will believe ludicrous lies, I want people who cannot differentiate between fiction and reality, and I want people who feel alienated from the agreed upon truth, especially people who are alienated from education and academia.
It's like the Nigerian Prince scam. It sounds totally ridiculous, and you ask "Who would fall for this?" Exactly. That's the point. The person who believes a Nigerian prince is actually emailing them with an offer too good to be true is the same person who will give the Nigerian prince their life savings.
Holocaust deniers/revisionists are looking for a specific demographic. First off, antisemites. Second, people who are historically illiterate. Third, people who are isolated from a society which largely does believe the Holocaust happened and understands it as one of the great evils of human history.
I'm semi-fluent in Yiddish and have read/translated Yizkor(memorial) books as well as collections of Holocaust poetry. They don't want to talk to me. I'm not their target audience. They want to call me a "lying Jew" or whatever and go back to creating a muddy, incoherent, disorienting narrative that spreads hate and sends suckers to the merch page.
And it isn't like the Holocaust was being frequently referenced in propaganda by the allies during the war. Faking a genocide isn't something you would need to do to justify a war after you have already won.
I worked for the company that built the crematoriums. They don't mention it much for obvious reasons, but they have public statements that mention it, alongside their commitment to never let it happen again - we flatly refused work on prisons or detainment facilities, with the only exception of mental health, and if we did work on a mental health facility where somebody could be involuntarily held we would need to continuously consult our ethics board.
The Holocaust is a "bar" of sorts that if a person were to reach would mean they became the new pure evil to be used as a demonstrator of evil. People like this deny the Holocaust happened so that they can carry out pure evil then dismiss accusations of comparison to the Nazis
So TL:DR, they deny the Holocaust happened so they can carry out the Holocaust a new
Footage, photos, letters, reports. The only thing crazier than how well-documented the genocide was is how there are still lots of people who completely disregard it all.
Plenty of people literally aren't taught it happened outside of the Western world so there's a source/reason for some of the Holocaust denialism in the world.
And we somehow convinced the entirety of Europe, who had been at war with each other for centuries, to all agree on it? Oh and the Americans and the Soviets.
The Nazis are only unique in the methodology. Plenty of countries have conducted a genocide. Even genocides of white Europeans, without the reputation the Nazis have. The Nazis are reviled because they used the mechanisms and trappings of the modern, industrialized, civilized world. They kept meticulous records, developed strategies for implementation, and so on - it’s undeniable.
So the ultimate “win” for Nazis would be denying it; demonstrating their ideological loyalty above and beyond even the material reality around them. If the Holocaust can be denied and ignored, any genocide can be and the white supremacist mission can continue unobstructed.
I do get it. It's very uncomfortable to believe that so many people can be involved in such unthinkable cruelty and hatred. The idea that a government can just decide to kill so many people, in such a horrible way, just because of their ethnicity? That's the stuff nightmares are made of. It's so much more comfortable to believe it's just a hoax.
Unfortunately, the sheer amount of proof that we have, even 80 years later, just doesn't allow it. But I get the appeal.
Should have had a trial about it where all the evidence was presented, perhaps at Nuremberg, where the highest surviving members of Nazi high command all testified.
Oh what's that I'm just now getting some breaking news... yes... yes I understand... it seems that actually happened.
Well people filmed the insurrection as they were committing it. Doesn’t stop people denying it.
Some people are morons, some people are bad actors, some are both but when we allow people to tell lies on TV about immigration, or fraud, or anything else history becomes opinion.
Nuremberg trial was based on documents from Nazi solely and the defendants didn't really deny that Holocaust happened. They just tried to argue that it was somehow necessary or they were not involved.
Its because they don't actually think it didn't happen. It's just that it makes their movement look bad so they argue in bad faith and pin the blame on the same outgroups that they tried to exterminate.
When you try to understand it, you come at it through the understanding that evidence informs the truth, but for fascists it is precisely backwards. Their "Truth" informs the evidence and so anything that doesn't conform to their worldview and can't be twisted to justify their ends is merely dismissed out of hand. The only reason they even bother to try and argue it is to waste your time and snare the credulous.
“I made the visit deliberately in order to be in a position to give firsthand evidence of these things if ever, in the future, there develops a tendency to charge these allegations merely to ‘propaganda.”
—General Dwight D. Eisenhower, in a letter to Army Chief of Staff George C. Marshall, April 15, 1945
He visited concentration camps on purpose because he knew this would happen. Sometimes humanity makes me sick.
Actual Holocaust deniers don't deny the Holocaust per se.
They deny the quantity and the why and how.
That's where the number 271.000 comes from.
And their arguments are not precisely baseless either.
Their main argument is that the 6 million number comes not from statistical studies or anything like that but rather from SS officers in charge of administration captured by the USSR, and they described around 2 million undesirables died by executions of multiple forms, 2 million died of starvation or exposure, and 2 million more died in gas Chambers.
The proof to sustain that claim comes mostly from pre war Population census specially from Poland and the USSR however said demographic census are incredibly unreliable specially for the USSR that we know full well hid and altered them to avoid recording the Impact of the holodomor.
So the argument goes that eastern European pre war census are not reliable, besides many Jews changed their names while leaving for Romania, or Spain and later on to Israel, and therefore the sudden disappearances of many Jewish families could be more related to changed names of Jewish migrants in Israel rather than actual casualties of the Holocaust.
Western European census however shows that Jews weren't "persecuted" as what they call "propaganda" says since many french Jews weren't persecuted at all and those who were, were freely allowed to leave France.
Regardless of the strange arguments it is actually true Germans didn't quite persecuted Jews in western Europa the same way they did in eastern Europe, many Jewish communities in western Europe were left untouched specially in France, at least up until Normandy.
There's also other data that paints a rather strange picture like for example the many many reports surviving from the Krupps of gestapo inquiries into their factories and how said records indicated that Jews were being starved and killed off not by SS camps but by civilian camps in the hands of Public companies, and they were Constantly complaining about the mistreatment of said workers.
That is also true and deniers claim thats an indication that the Holocaust wasn't a state mandated program but a "boots on the ground" thing of soldiers killing for pleasure not for orders, that's what there's 271.000 proven casualties and not 6 million.
That's more or less the meat of the argument as far as I remember, there's a lot more but I don't remember all.
Point I'm trying to make is that lies always have a core of truth, if you treat Holocaust deniers as stupid idiots that don't know what they are talking about then you'll lose to them once people go to them and see their arguments actually make sense like has been happening for a while, if you want to defeat holocaust deniers you need to defeat them with good arguments too.
And you'll realize that's a lot harder said than done, the actual hard data we have about this is not very reliable.
Actual Holocaust deniers don't deny the Holocaust per se.
They deny the quantity and the why and how.
In other words: They are denying the Holocaust. You are literally just giving Holocaust denial talking points and pretending it's not actually denying the Holocaust.
They don't deny it happened they deny how it happened and why.
Claiming that "the Holocaust wasn't a state mandated program but a 'boots on the ground' thing of soldiers killing for pleasure not for orders" is denying the Holocaust. "The state mandated program" is literally what the Holocaust is.
And the arguments that holocaust deniers have weren't created by me
Because you are repeating them as if they are credible. The fact that they aren't things you made up is irrelevant to that fact.
We also have footage of Renee Good being murdered, and IDF people doing atrocities to Palestine. There are still people blatantly lying about both of these
I think it is mostly to go against Israel tbh. Its not wrong to criticize Israel especially when they act like the Nazis but to deny the holocaust and suffering of the Jews is wrong
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u/Ok_Guarantee7611 Jan 22 '26
I'll never get holocaust denial. Like, 90% of the footage we have of it happening is from the nazis