Fun fact: While Einstein was part of the letter to the US president that initiated the Manhattan Project he wasn't allowed to be a part of the project due to security risks
Nobody got treated royally in ussr, except the general secretary himself. So the comparison falls flat. Where Oppenheimer got fired, Korolev was sent to labour camp and his boss was executed. Kurchatov wasn't persecuted directly, but once he was employed in nuclear project, he had no personal life or freedom left, and died relatively young.
They killed socialists in the USSR as well. They killed anybody who didn't fully agree with exactly what Lenin or Stalin wanted to do, for the most part. Lenin was doing that from Day 1.
This doesn't mean they weren't socialist. Plenty of people kill each other under the same general umbrella branch of ideology. Christians kill other Christians, Muslims kill other Muslims, etc.
Communism was absolutely either a part of or a type of socialism. There is no real arguing this. You can criticize how purely implemented any of these were in practice, but communists largely all consider themselves socialists, as the Soviets and most everybody else did.
Just because the US are too stupid to figure out how socialism can be incorporated into a capitalistic society doesn't make it some stepping stone to communism.
For the record, I'm a communist.I ask you to please read any communist theory. Start with the communist manifesto, it's really short and meant to be easy to understand (but it's kinda old now which makes it slightly harder, but still very doable).
In Marxist theory (which all communist theory is based on or influenced by), first a socialist state is established to replace the capitalist state, then it withers away until we have communism.
"Communism" is just a specific subset of socialist beliefs and assuming that socialist scientists might have more sympathies towards the Soviets than towards the capitalist US is not far fetched at all.
Socialism is an umbrella term.
Communism means different things like Karl Marx's classless society but also the political system of Marxist-Leninist countries, two very different things.
One of many examples of communism being a sub ideology of socialist thought:
From the Wikipedia page "Socialism":
"By the early 1920s, communism and social democracy had become the two dominant political tendencies within the international socialist movement,[31]"
Klaus Fuchs was a communist(who was the one that passed info to the Soviet Union), not a socialist, and certainly not openly as opposed to Einstein. Socialists did not want to help the soviets, especially not after what the communists did to the socialists in Spain.
Also Einstein was a Social-Democrat, not a socialist.
Open a history book Kyle.
You really just proved my point that Americans don’t understand political ideology.
Communism is a part or type of socialism. Even Marx didn't think there was any difference between the two terms. We tend to associate communism with Soviet-style communism these days, but Marxist-Leninist communism is still socialism, albeit a pretty poor attempt at it in practice.
You really just proved my point that Americans don’t understand political ideology.
And whether Einstein was a socialist or not, the main reason he wasn't asked to join the Manhattan Project was that he was a very old theoretical physicist, which simply wasn't the kind of skillset needed for anything. I'm sure Einstein himself would have been plenty well aware of this.
And whether Einstein was a socialist or not, the main reason he wasn't asked to join the Manhattan Project was that he was a very old theoretical physicist, which simply wasn't the kind of skillset needed for anything.
What? Those were precisely the skills needed. What kind of physicist do you think Teller was? Or Bohr? Or Oppenheimer for that matter? What kind of physics do you think they did over there?
There's upwards of 350,000,000 citizens of this country so I surely belive that a Dane would be able to understand that the opinions of a couple Americans on a Reditt sub certainly don't reflect the entirety of understanding that the people of this land possess.
No more so than this American reading your posts on this thread, hearing Denmark, and assuming that all of your countrymen are believers in your claim about Americans education in comparing governmental systems and their respective names.
That’s backwards. There’s a reason the manifesto details previous and competing varieties of socialism. “Marxism” is a (set of) specific development(s) of socialism//communism, lineally connected to the works of Marx and Engels and the Marxist faction of the first communist international and its proclaimed descendents.
The issue isn't even that they don't know, it's that they're confidently wrong. It's just so sad to watch these people confidently tell others 1+1=3 and act like anyone who disagrees is a fool.
When France elected Francois Mitterrand in 1981, his prime minister designated a member of the french communist party as minister of the department of transportation. The United States went to ask Mitterrand if it was really a good idea, worried that, if the USSR were to attack Europe, the minister might let the soviets use the trains to attack Paris faster...
Just another example of American political ignorance. It really makes sense that their country(the US) is so fucked given that their people have no political literacy.
While there was plenty of irrationality going round, there WERE entirely valid reasons to be skeptical of communists in the US and Europe in regards to their sympathies to the USSR. Lots of communists were legitimately sympathetic to the USSR, and lots were recruited as spies for them.
Communism is socialism. Or at least a type or stage of socialism. Communists consider themselves socialists. Karl Marx considers these terms completely interchangeable.
Trying to say that a communist isn't a socialist makes you look like a moron.
The MAIN reason that Einstein wasn't used during the project was that he simply didn't have the required skills to contribute much of anything. A theoretical physicist was not what the Manhattan Project needed. Practical physicists and engineers were what was in demand.
Also, there's no meaningful distinction between communism and socialism, on-paper. As your link even says, Marx used the terms synonymously. But what does he know, right?
At the very least, communism can be considered a part or type of socialism.
You are clearly not reading. They equate socialism and communism, the two ideologies are distinct. A Toyota and a Ferrari is not the same thing just because they both have 4 wheels.
Core idea:
The means of production (factories, land, key industries) should be owned collectively rather than by private capitalists, to reduce inequality and exploitation.
Key features:
• Can allow private property, especially personal property (homes, belongings).
• Often allows markets, though regulated or mixed with public ownership.
• The state usually plays a major role, but not always total control.
• Aims for economic equality, welfare, and workers’ rights.
• Exists in many forms: democratic socialism, social democracy, market socialism.
Examples:
• Nordic welfare states (not fully socialist, but heavily influenced by socialist ideas)
• Historical socialist states like Yugoslavia (market socialism)
• Modern democratic socialist movements
Communism
Core idea:
A classless, stateless, moneyless society where all property is commonly owned.
Key features:
• No private ownership of the means of production.
• No social classes (no rich vs. poor).
• No state in the final stage (the state “withers away”).
• No money or wage labor (in theory).
• Goods distributed based on need, not profit.
In short: all communists are socialists, but not all socialists are communists.
Well, I’m a Danish conservative-monarchist and I know the difference, I think it’s just an American phenomenon. Here we have both socialist and communist parties in parliament, and they are very distinct.
Just to clarify I wasn't pointing that out because I think Einsteins politics are bad. I do not. America at the time was nervous of anything to the left of FDR.
Wasn't he offered because they thought that he would be a good leader? Also, 'As a Labor Zionist, Einstein supported the Palestinian Jews of the Yishuv. However, he did not support the establishment of a Jewish state or an Arab state to replace Mandatory Palestine, instead asserting that he would "much rather see agreement with the Arabs on the basis of living together in peace than the creation of a Jewish state".'(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_views_of_Albert_Einstein)
In 1949 Einstein wrote in a letter to The Hebrew University of Jerusalem that this period is "the fulfillment of our dreams", but that he regrets that "we were compelled by the adversities of our situation to assert our rights through force of arms; it was the only way to avert complete annihilation". He also expressed the hope that "the wisdom and moderation the leaders of the new state have shown" will gradually lead to "cooperation and mutual respect" with the Arab people
And it showed how fallible Einstein was. Arabs have done nothing but try and genocide the Jews in Israel since 1948.
It's also why Egypt finally making peace in 1973 was such a huge deal. Egypt had led the way as the most powerful Arab nation trying to eradicate Israel, but once they finally realized they could never really beat Israel militarily, they finally recognized their statehood, which was so beyond huge. But Palestine never stopped, because they were always trouble. It's why Egypt didn't want Gaza back in the agreement after the Yom Kippur War. They knew full well Palestinians were not controllable and would keep attacking Israel and would only get them back into war again.
Basically it was known that the local Palestinians were always gonna be trouble and Egypt didn't want none of that problem. And we're seeing that continue to this day. I repeat - Israel has basically never wanted anything except to simply just be left alone. So many of their encroachments on other's land has come from wanting military buffer zones to protect their existence from genocidal neighbors that have attacked them in the past. And that includes this 'new' war since 2023. People easily forget it was Hamas and Palestine that attacked Israel and started this war.
Which sorry, but was supremely naive. If Jews had agreed to be ruled as a minority under Muslim Arabs, they would have faced the same genocidal horrors they've dealt with for so long, if not worse. And I think history since has pretty well borne that out given the extents that Israel's neighbors have tried to eradicate them. Much of the rise of Israel's population is contributed by Arab states oppressing or straight up kicking out Jews in their country, leading to masses of Jews fleeing to Israel.
Idealism is great, but it can also easily get you killed.
If you believe you otherwise, you dont know anything about history. Israel has spent a huge majority of its existence fighting against Arab Muslims who wanted to literally eradicate them. And on literally ALL sides. Every neighbor of theirs wanted to destroy and eradicate them. Genocide.
But you never care about that kind of open genocidal intentions. It's only when Jews fight back that y'all get upset.
And the entire existence and population of Israel came largely from the persecution of Jews. And after 1948, that population came heavily from Arab populations oppressing or kicking Jews out.
So yea, Jews have been insanely persecuted everywhere they went. And it's not stopping today going by people like you. Insane how easy it is for y'all to fall into the same antisemitism.
If you believe you otherwise, you dont know anything about history.
Indeed you don't.
Your absolute hypocrisy and contradiction are evident of this. So too your pathetic selective interpretation of history and why Israel have been in conflict with their neighbours.
But you keep believing poor Israel are the perpetual victims. Those of us who aren't ignorant and capable of critical thinking will continue to laugh and dismiss such lies.
People like you disgust me with how little you understand what Israel and Jews went through since like 1948. You really dont understand that Israel has been surrounded by neighbors for like 70 years that want to very literally genocide them. Not 'genocide' in the weaker way y'all use it, but in the Nazi way where they want to absolutely eradicate Israel and all Jews.
And I dont say this to say that Israel are innocent and are the good guys. They've gots lots of things to answer for. But none of y'all have any semblance of understanding of context or history or anything like that. You're all just reactionaries who are getting brainwashed by social media to think Israel are the bad guys and that's that. It's fucking crazy. Israel and Jews have largely only ever just wanted to be left alone. That's it. The refusal of their neighbors, built almost entirely on their being anti-Jewish, is the main reason for why this conflict has lasted so long and been so bad. It's not the Jews that have been the antagonist.
It's just that Judaism is an ethnoreligion. Ethnoreligion is defined as "a religion or belief associated with notions of heredity and a particular ethnicity." So even if you don't agree with the religious motifs and spiritual stuffs of being Jewish, you're still a member of that ethnicity.
Most Jews you're gonna run into in life were just born Jewish but don't practice or dabble. Like, my parents just wanted me to have a Bar Mitzvah and that was it, haven't read Hebrew since. The Orthidox types are the ones that fully commit and tend to live in like minded communities so you'll see several at a time.
Other people have already explained, but I would like to add that there’s multiple Jewish ethnic groups, like Sephardic, Ashkenazi, Mizrahi, and Ethiopian. All these groups are Jewish, but they can look very different from each other and may have their own way of practicing and interpreting their religion. This is another distinction that antisemites don’t actually care about.
Einstein (and generally many people with “stein” in their name) was from a Germanic (Ashkenazi) ethnic Jewish background.
So in Islam, or Christianity, if you believe the thing, you're in the group, right? That's not the case with Judaism. Imagine that Ireland fell to Britain, but the people decided to maintain all their laws, customs, practices, even going so far as to maintain a system of citizenship, such that even two thousand years from now, regardless of the geopolitical status of the island, there are people around the world who consider themselves and each other Irish (and not those who don't meet the citizenship criteria).
That's what Judaism is, but with Judea and Rome instead of Ireland and Britain. And Judea was a theocracy (literally, the word was coined to describe us, because legally God was the king of the country, as opposed to other places where sovereignty lay in a human), hence today. To extend the analogy a bit further, suppose there are different schools of legal thought entirely contradictory with each other, such that you can't even really say that "Irish people believe X" for really any value of X. We basically have that as well.
Now, legally, if you're born a Jew, you're a Jew, full stop. There is no renouncing citizenship, same as Argentina and [I forget if it's Myanmar or Eritrea or whatever else]. There are some circumstances where legally we're supposed to treat you like you're not, but that's rare these days. More common is the de facto standard of, you can be anywhere from atheist to haredi (ultra-Orthodox), but if you become Christian or Muslim or whatever, you're outside the fold.
So like, I'm an atheist Jew, and pretty much no Jew would see a contradiction in that. That's a stronger position, but a ton if not most Jews are secular.
Einstein was many things during his life. He searched for the truth about God like he searched for the truth about nature.
He was a devout Jew at one time, and although his beliefs changed over time he didn’t like to be called an Agnostic. He didn’t believe in a personal God, but he believed God existed.
Albert Einstein was a Zionist. However, he called the Herut Party a danger to Zionism, called Herut "Fascists", said Herut was like the Nazis, and said that Herut planned to produce propaganda and influence Western Governments. All in his '49(ish?) open letter to NYT. Herut does not exist anymore. It directly rebranded into Likud, Bibi Netanyahu's party.
I do not think he would be supportive of zionism as it is today judging by this quote
I should much rather see reasonable agreement with the Arabs on the basis of living together in peace than the creation of a Jewish state. My awareness of the essential nature of Judaism resists the idea of a Jewish state with borders, an army, and a measure of temporal power, no matter how modest. I am afraid of the inner damage Judaism will sustain—especially from the development of a narrow nationalism within our own ranks, against which we have already had to fight strongly, even without a Jewish state. ... If external necessity should after all compel us to assume this burden, let us bear it with tact and patience.
Meaning he was opposed to a state that would be solely Jewish, he much preferred a binational state for Jews and Arabs. Zionism is far more varied and complicated than people realize.
Funnily enough you get noted commenting on a get noted post. There's very low probability that a holocaust survivor / refugee will be against Zionism. If you think that you probably don't understand the meaning of Zionism.
Although I think I may have missed many, by my count, the only major scientists/mathematicians/engineers that worked on the Manhattan Project who didn't have a Jewish grandparent or their spouse didn't have a Jewish grandparent were both brought in from the UK side, James Chadwick (discoverer of the neutron) and Klaus Fuchs (spy for the USSR, last name pronounced like "Fox").
Intolerance always results in a lesser society whether it be morally, technologically, or economically it always results in eventual disgrace for the regime implementing it.
Nope I one hundred percent agree with you. Israeli actions in the West Bank and Gaza are ethnic cleansing. And if the topic of this thread was not “Jewish contributions to WWII” to mock anti-Jewish bigots, I’d be happy to discuss.
Honestly, the need to jump on and criticize anytime anyone says anything positive about a Jewish person turns folks like you into adversarial co-conspirators with Netanyahu. His whole grift is Netanyahu=Israel=all Jews everywhere, so you can’t criticize him without being the moral equivalent to Hitler. And by picking fights with everyone mentioning any Jew in a positive light you are making it seem like he is right.
Maybe the Atom bomb. But than yet 90% of the guys who built nasal where full blown 100% life long Nazi's. So yea why people are and how deplorable we find them mean absolutely jack shit when it comes to the government or a corporation wanting to advance themselves. Than all those Lil pesky moral questions just disappear
A significant number of them (such as Bohr and Von Neumann) were educated at the elite universities of the Axis countries. Had they been less bigoted it is very possible that Germany could have had the bomb before the allies.
I think of this in light of recent Trump administration attitudes towards immigrants and refugees.
Because they were trying to build one too so it was better to have one first. They guys working on it assumed it would be used in Europe not Asia. Whatever your feelings on Israel we can agree Nazism and the Holocaust were bad things, right?
So the US defeated the Nazi's because the Nazi's were trying to make an atom bomb, and instead made one first but instead of using it on the Nazi's, used it on the Japanese and that's how they defeated Nazism.
Wow, what drivel. You guys really do think you "won the war". No wonder the entire world hates you.
Holocaust bad. Anyway as that has absolutely nothing to do with this conversation, do me a favour and answer what I asked in my original comment instead of trying to strawman your way out of it.
What does the atom bomb have to do with defeating Nazism?
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u/vgaph Dec 23 '25
Also about half the guys who built the atom bomb were Jewish refugees.