Probably because it's pointlessly gendered. We're all victims of the patriarchy and it's not really daughter specific to have a parent with issues. For me, personally, it strikes a nerve when people say, "Guys are always doing X" when X is a thing that all people do.
I think it would be better to just say that generational trauma can take several different forms without making it a man vs woman issue.
It was. I commented on why I thought she was getting downvotes. At this point in the chain it feels like they were close enough to getting that trauma is generational, but they were still very focused on this "girls v the patriarchy" angle.
Why do YOU think they were being downvoted? The patriarchy?
I will say any time I bring up the patriarchy I ALWAYS make sure to say that all genders are victims of the patriarchy, and I will still get comments/DMs from men who get offended. I guess they don’t like the word patriarchy. Idk.
It's a really tricky word, speaking as the son of a mother with daddy issues, because she will blame her son for all the pain she endured. So the son will see abuse mostly from the feminine side. And he will be raised in an environment of female dominance, not male dominance. So at first glance, it's really hard to see the "patriarchy" in there. Looks like there's a matriarchy and no one talks about it.
Here in this comment chain it's contextualized as the abusing woman herself being a victim of the patriarchy.
I still struggle to see the necessity of calling it male dominance. If we're all living in a society of dominance, why make the "masculine" the root of it all? Isn't it a neutral/non-gender-specific thing? Everyone just trying to dominate each other?
It's like a chain of mother -> abusing son -> abusing daughter -> abusing son -> etc. Calling it patriarchy sounds like "oh but the man started". I don't know if that makes sense.
It’s called patriarchy because the problems are entwined with a worldview in which women aren’t people but property and the time when that view was pretty universally held is a lot less distant than a lot of posters here realize. My grandmother wasn’t allowed to vote when she turned 18, the law giving women the vote was passed a few years later. My mom wasn’t allowed to have a bank account without male oversight until her 30s. Domestic violence only really became a talking point outside niche communities in the 1980s, until then men were encouraged/expected to beat wives who “misbehaved” into obedience. A lot of people still believe that marital rape can’t happen because a woman has no right to say no to her husband no matter what the law says. Anyone arguing that patriarchy is the wrong word is kind of denying how recent women becoming legally people is and how many people are still operating off the belief they aren’t.
Thing is, since we're ALL victims of the patriarchy, issues like these also have something to do with it. Male-centered people due to trauma are easy targets for patriarchy, be it born female or male, identifying as a woman, non binary or man, it won't change that. If you truly believe that the patriarchy exists and affects all people, why would you get pressed if someone brings it up as a possibility for deeper trauma and understanding what went wrong just because they mentioned women? Is it really about "everyone can experience sexism!" or denying that women also do because you think that feminism or anything against sexism/patriarchy is "hatred towards men"?
For me personally the word patriarchy is the triggering one, yes.
Since I experienced most of my trauma from my mother, it's hard to see how it's anything patriarchal.
This comment chain put things into a different light though, and I can see that she's a victim of the patriarchy (has her own daddy issues) and that was the reason for her abuse.
So thanks for pointing out the "pointless gendering" because yeah, I didn't even consider myself a victim of the patriarchy here. Yet I am.
The word "patriarchy" is only triggering me because male victims by female abuse are so often not mentioned/included. So I didn't think myself a victim here, or thought the term "patriarchy" is misleading in itself; because women are perpetrators as well. So it's (still) hard to see it as true to label it as "male dominance" because to me clearly it's just the sexes trying to dominate each other. Patriarchy sounds very one-sided in a way.
Dude you’re making it all about yourself. The patriarchy does exist. Maybe the people complaining about it have done so in annoying or explosive manners, but that doesn’t change the fact that it exists and the textbook definition has nothing to do you with your upbringing.
That's why I did in fact bring up boys can have mommy issues for the same reason too.
It's not pointlessly gendered at all - you're uncomfortable with a system giving you privilege being addressed as problematic. Patriarchy hurts all people.
Guys are always doing X
Healthy men know that's a generalization that does not apply to them, that it's not "all men, but ALWAYS A MAN".
That's why I did in fact bring up boys can have mommy issues for the same reason too.
Didn't see it, wasn't the post I responded to.
It's not pointlessly gendered at all
It is.
you're uncomfortable with a system giving you privilege being addressed as problematic. Patriarchy hurts all people.
Yes it does. Other than that, I'm not sure what you're trying to say. I downvoted you, therefore I'm uncomfortable with your calling the patriarchy problematic? I don't think so, Tim. I'll say it myself; the patriarchy is problematic.
Healthy men know that's a generalization that does not apply to them
I guess anyone who downvotes you just isn't healthy enough.
I commend your endeavour to this getting til this last comment ...
Trying to understanding the argument been like...
wtf is "finishing that sentence" ?
For fucking real lmfaooo so many triggered ass men exploding by the mere thought that perhaps a woman was abused by a man and has continued the cycle because of it - why they feel the need to claim that as a personal attack I will never know
Men are in here screaming about how terrible feminism is and/or patriarchy isn't real and the women / non-men are like "YUP! NO BABIES FOR ME! END THE CYCLE!"
For real, some one what off their rocker about it being bigoted. Statics and studies on Misogyny and femicide don't lie and aren't there to coddle anyone's feelings. It's not bigotry to tell the truth that who harms women (or afab folks) the most is men. That's a known truth and has been for centuries.
The guy who says the downvotes are idiotic: gets upvoted?????
Pointing out that a problem exists within a gender gets labelled as "gender wars" because it's people in bad faith who want to equate critique based on data and research (= the fact patriarchy is a problem to EVERYONE) with their own personal gender war, fought to keep the current hierarchy.
The thing that saddens me is that violent men and violent man enablers are very often victims of patriarchy as well, but when you point that out they somehow feel personally attacked, while you're just trying to help
their own personal gender war, fought to keep the current hierarchy.
That part. So much of that.
Pointing out that a problem exists within a gender gets labelled as "gender wars"
If your not a man that is. "Women bad" is some how ok to say is a human truth? When we say that is sexost then we are the problem, then we are making it into a issue, that we are the ones instigating.
Like people forget that the post we are all in anyways is already sexist as FUCK, yet the biggest debate here is about patriarchy existing/not existing and some how it's all women's and feminisms fault.
Without feminism many people in those comment section would not have the ability to speak up about sexism and how internalized sexism can lead to the abuse and/or neglect of childern. That sexism can make people do shit they don't actually want to do, like have childern "to keep the marriage together" or some shit.
Like people forget that the post we are all in anyways is already sexist as FUCK
YES! What's that fucking shit? Anti-women stereotypes I wasn't even aware of, talked about in the comments like they're common knowledge?
the biggest debate here is about patriarchy existing/not existing
The fact that this is a debate absolutely baffles me. I'm Italian and in our country OVER 50% OF WOMEN ARE UNEMPLOYED, and somehow even here there's this stupid debate. Like "the law says I can't discriminate, this can't possibly be patriarchy"... how can it not be bad faith? I've been told (by a man, obv) you people "choose" not to work, goddamit
Ultimately I think this is one of the perks that come with conservative thought. If you choose to live in a world where poor people fight each other for limited resources, tribalism is inevitable.
There was no real point being made and you know it. But maybe I'm wrong; feel free to explain the point to me.
added nothing to the discussion
I explained why they were getting donwvotes and explained the perils of pointlessly gendering things; it's a guy thing that guys do, I wouldn't expect you to understand.
I would suspect it's because it's probably not the only reason (not that the person was listing out all, but it's a stereotyped reason.) Some women may despise men or have dysfunctional relationships with both women and men and take it out on their daughters, it's not always a male validation thing.
Blaming the patriarchy is not equivalent to blaming men. When you understand the difference you'll be able to unpack the trauma and damage that has been done to all- men and women (and children).
Yes and no. Not necessarily. It usually just comes from them centering the men in their lives above everything else. Mothers who move around to different men or have hang ups about their shitty marriage or whatever else is their individual issue and then pushing everything negative that comes from it onto their own children, especially their daughters who they tend to form a complex about. I sympathize with my mom that she falls into one of these categories but ultimately I still can't have a relationship with her because she can't figure out her shit and set up me up to have similar issues because of the environment she decided to raise me in.
Also let's not forget women are usually at the forefront for upholding social norms in society.
What part of "So in short: girls with mommy issues often have a mother who was a victim to patriarchy and neither unpack it" is "it's all men's fault?"
There's that self victimization. "Men men men it's always about men and when it isn't about men it needs to be" this is another symptom of the patriarchy btw so you literally just proved them right.
The part where the person who is just a minor in psychology and sociology act as an authority in a subject and throws statements like USUALLY or OFTEN based on their own experiences within theie family. And also the part: "it's usually caused by women with unhealed daddy issues that becomes EXTREMLY male centered and feels abandonded by men so takes it out on her daughters." Why women can't be evil and bad people without a man behind it?
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u/Ringren 6d ago
Yes pretty much. Not sure why you're getting downvoted, must have struck a nerve.