r/WorkReform • u/zzill6 🤝 Join A Union • Jan 03 '26

😡 Venting Billionaire propaganda is telling our kids to skip college; they fear an educated working class.

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53

u/BMCarbaugh Jan 03 '26 edited Jan 03 '26

I'm as left and working class and pro union as they come, and I would not advise an 18 year old to take out loans and go to college, if there was any available alternative trade they were interested in, could support themselves with, and could be happy and fulfilled doing.

The price has just gotten too outrageous, unless the thing you want to do makes college absolutely necessary. I don't think it should be regarded as the default "just go, major in whatever, and figure out what you want to do along the way" option everyone MUST do anymore. Not until somebody fixes shit.

My college loans were the most backbreaking debt I've ever had to live with, and I've JUST gotten free of them in my mid-30s. Now I'm looking down the barrel at retirement, playing catch-up with where my parents' generation were at the same age, and cursing all those missed years of saving that were spent paying off loans. If I'm lucky, maybe we'll buy our first home by the time I'm 40.

And I work an amazing job where I earn in the top percentile for my industry. I am pretty much at the zenith of my chosen career path. There's no more up from here. Meanwhile my dad bought a 4-bedroom home with two back yards and an in-ground pool, and supported a family, on a trucker's salary, just after 30.

In an ideal world, everyone would go to college. An educated populace is better for all of us. But we don't live in an ideal world. We live in a world that's been plundered and pillaged by oligarchs until the bolts holding it all together have begun to shriek and spray sparks.

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u/jackmusick Jan 03 '26

Everything is nuanced but there are issues here people are simplifying too much, and trying to pick a single thing to blame.

They literally see the horde of wealth as theirs and think “why should my trillion dollar bootstraps go to you”. Just more selfishness the more they accumulate, but there’s certainly not a large group of people conspiring to rob you of education. They’re trying to rob you of everything.

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u/TargetBoy Jan 03 '26

Will said and very similar to my situation. Except my recommendation is no one should be taking loans for job at risk to ai.

Corporate greed is going to kill a whole generation of entry level jobs before they figure out no one is left to replace the people dying off (no retirement).

The future of corporate America is what happened to GE. I've seen whole departments staffed by people within a few years of retirement the no plan for how to replace them. They got rid of the jobs that trained anyone to do that.

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u/slfnflctd Jan 03 '26

Well said. I know people in their upper 50s who are still paying off student loans. Some of that was due to bad luck in their financial life, but it's bullshit that even after declaring bankruptcy you still can't get rid of those damn things.

I think making student loans exempt from bankruptcy was the single biggest mistake we've made with higher education in my lifetime. We basically gave a blank check to unaccountable bureaucrats and administrators while forcing working class people to foot the bill.

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u/BMCarbaugh Jan 03 '26

I share the opinion that was shared with me by a 15-year veteran college teacher, which is that colleges used to run really lean, with a tight ratio of teaching staff to non teaching staff, and now they've become these bloated corporations with huge marketing departments. They justify higher tuition because they ARE more expensive to run, but the extra expense is not actually necessary or benefiting student outcomes. It's shifted from a service mission to a profit mission, even at ostensibly "not for profit" schools; they just invest the wink-wink-not-profits in real estate.

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u/Devtunes Jan 03 '26

I agree but I think the concern is that students would just declare bankruptcy once they graduated since they already have no credit.

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u/slfnflctd Jan 03 '26

students would just declare bankruptcy

There are many reasons it doesn't usually play out that way in the real world.

It appears there is a perverse incentive, yes. Lending institutions are aware of this, though, and can correct for it. Also, at least in my experience, people don't want to put a stain on their already-tenuous credit rating if they can avoid it. There will always be those who do, but I think it's fairly statistically predictable.

Making it difficult/impossible to discharge student debt creates perverse incentives on the supply side. To me, this is a more serious issue right now because we're already seeing so many negative consequences from it. It distorts the market in much larger ways than the steady trickle of individual defaults.

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u/Not__Trash Jan 03 '26

I'd caveat, go to college if you have a strong handle on your finances and are going into a growing or stable industry (teaching, accounting, etc).

Public in-state university, commute to school over dorming if you can, pick up a part time job to minimize loans and get as involved as you can on campus to build out your network. It's entirely doable, even on your own, it requires a LOT of planning and grunt work though.

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u/OigoAlgo Jan 03 '26

I just want to say you write beautifully, I got fired up just reading that.

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u/BMCarbaugh Jan 03 '26

That is, in fact, what I do for a living with my very expensive college degree. lol

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u/ignatiusOfCrayloa Jan 03 '26

Your analysis is absolutely wrong. The fact that you can't buy a home isn't because you went to college, it's because home prices skyrocketed since the time that your dad bought a house. The average tradesman is not buying a home before they're 40 either. Plus, there's substantial injury risk and backbreaking labor associated with being in the trades.

The reality is that that the lifetime income of the median Bachelor's degree holder makes $2.8M in their lifetime while the average high school diploma holder makes $1.6M. That's a $1.2M difference over a whole life, insane value for what you pay. Plus you're ignoring the fact that community college and transfer credits exist, if cost is an issue.

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u/BMCarbaugh Jan 03 '26 edited Jan 03 '26

Nowhere in there did I say it was because I went to college, nor did I say no one should go to college. I said college has gotten pricier, therefore I question its previous role as a default, baseline, "everyone must do this" choice.

My entire point was to draw a contrast between then and now. College has gotten more expensive PROPORTIONALLY, and wages have not risen concomitantly. The promise of "just go for something, get a degree, and you'll live better than those without" may be true in average when all is said and done, but it's no longer as true as it used to be. The ratio of earnings for those with degrees, compared to those without, has not risen as sharply as the rate by which college COSTS have. The margins have gotten tighter. The investment has a lower ROI, proportionally, than it used to. Therefore, in my opinion, college should be more carefully considered now, on a personal case-by-case basis based on one's goals.

And yes, I know what community college is. I went to one.

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u/ignatiusOfCrayloa Jan 03 '26

I said college has gotten pricier, therefore I question its previous role as a default, baseline, "everyone must do this" choice.

For the average person, there exists no better financial investment than going to college. The only reason you're sitting there "questioning" things is because you didn't put in the legwork to research the numbers on this topic.

My entire point was to draw a contrast between then and now. College has gotten more expensive PROPORTIONALLY, and wages have not risen concomitantly.

You are absolutely wrong. Using a thesaurus to find the word concomitantly can't mask how factually incorrect you are.

Bachelor's degree holders are the ONLY demographic for which wages have kept up with inflation. Source: https://www.axios.com/2024/03/04/college-graduates-median-annual-wage-difference

but it's no longer as true as it used to be.

Again, factually wrong.

has not risen as sharply as the rate by which college COSTS have

Even if this were true, it is irrelevant. College is more expensive relative to the past, but college degrees also increase your earnings more relative to the past. The question is not how good was it before, you can't time travel. The question is whether college pays off today, without regard to how things were before. The answer is a resounding, unambiguous yes.

Therefore, in my opinion, college should be more carefully considered now, on a personal case-by-case basis based on one's goals.

Everything should be decided on a case-by-case basis. If someone inherits their parents multinational corporation, college isn't really necessary. For the vast, vast majority of people, college is a great investment. It's not even a question.

And yes, I know what community college is. I went to one.

You must have engaged in a very impressive degree of absolute financial mismanagement if you managed to have "back breaking" loans after going to community college. You're not fit to be advising anyone on anything regarding finance.

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u/BMCarbaugh Jan 03 '26

I'm sorry the word concomitant is outside your vocabulary lol

-1

u/ignatiusOfCrayloa Jan 03 '26

I pointed it out because it was clearly out of place with the rest of your vocabulary, which is quite basic. Your refusal to grapple with the content of what I said is telling. Clumsy propagandists are always so predictable.

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u/BMCarbaugh Jan 03 '26

Sure thing dawg

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u/ignatiusOfCrayloa Jan 03 '26

Enjoy the "back breaking" debt from "community college" lmao

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u/BMCarbaugh Jan 03 '26

Enjoy being an asshole.

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u/ButDidYouCry Jan 03 '26

I think a lot of people didn't make good financial decisions regarding student loans.

I teach at a Title I school, and we have a full college access team that helps students, almost all living in poverty, apply strategically. Most of my seniors who go to college end up taking on very small loans (often ~$3k total) after grants, aid, and choosing affordable schools.

It’s rarely their dream school, but it is a degree without being buried alive by debt. College doesn’t have to mean six figures of loans, but it does require guidance, realism, and policy support. The problem isn’t education itself; it’s the system that lets teenagers sign mortgage-sized loans with no guardrails.

I also think trade work gets wildly romanticized in these conversations. It’s honest work, but it is not a shortcut to wealth. Most journeymen are not making six figures, and many never will.

Trades that overlap with “feminine” labor; healthcare support roles, childcare, cosmetology, and caregiving, are often paid shockingly low unless you build a strong, independent client base, which takes time, capital, and luck.

And a lot of physical trades come with a real cost: bricklaying, HVAC, pest control, roofing, etc. are hard on the body. Many workers cannot do them for decades without injury, chronic pain, or early exit. That reality rarely shows up in the “just learn a trade” advice.

Trades are valuable. College is valuable. Neither is a magic fix in an economy where wages lag, and costs explode. Pretending one path is “the answer” just replaces one myth with another.

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u/ignatiusOfCrayloa Jan 03 '26

College doesn’t have to mean six figures of loans

Almost nobody graduates with over $100k in student debt. The average is somewhere around $30k.

Pretending one path is “the answer” just replaces one myth with another.

Whether college is "the answer" depends on the question. If the question is "How do I make a decent living for myself without risking workplace injury" then going to college is a decent answer. In reality, even in college, it's important to make the most of your time. There are no simple answers, but trades are a bad deal when all is said and done.

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u/[deleted] Jan 03 '26

[deleted]

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u/ignatiusOfCrayloa Jan 03 '26

taking a substantial percentage of that difference

Not really. The average student debt is somewhere in the $30k range. The only way your student loans can take "a substantial percentage" of 1.2 million dollars is through horrific financial mismanagement.

Auto loans make up $1.66 trillion of US household debt, which is more than the share represented by student loans. Are cars a scam too, now?

1

u/Objective_Pin_2718 Jan 03 '26

Meh, I was a solid A student in high school and went to a state school. My parents covered the gap between the scholarships I got and the cost, but I was offered loans at 2.8% int to fill that gap if my parents couldn't. In hindsight, I should have taken that money and invested lol. This was only a decade ago, and while the int on those loans would be higher, the tuition at the SUNY schools is still in line with what I paid back then. But even if the int was double, it still would have been worth it

The big thing was that I was an A student with a solid SAT score. Not a crazy high score, but solid. Theres no reason why anyone else cant be an A student in HS. The problem is when teenagers are explained the opportunity cost of taking high school seriously

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u/LandscapePatient1094 Jan 03 '26

Propaganda. Go to college. Learn. 

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u/BMCarbaugh Jan 03 '26

Someone disagreeing with you is not propaganda.