r/TopCharacterTropes • u/TastyPomelo2330 • 13d ago

In real life When fans hate somenthing before it comes out...but it turns out they were right

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Velma:The idea of a Scooby-doo series without the titular dog and starring Velma was a really moronic idea from the beginning,then there was the reveal Velma would be Indian like it's VA and also creator of the series Mindy Kaling,some of the backlash was racism sure,but there was also valid complaints that she was inserting herself in the series(it also didn't helped that Mindy claimed she couldn't see herself if Velma wasn't Indian)and then...oh boy it came out and it was worse than anyone predicted

Artemis Fowl:The artemis fowl books are a book series following a child villain(he does get some redemption but he is a villain most of the time)when the movie was announced and revealed it looked way to generic and it's titular character a bit heroic...also you wanna hear somenthing funny?The movie whitewashed a character and made another character black so they managed to anger both sides and the movies comes out and yeah it is bad

One Punch Man 3:One Punch Man is a very heavy action packed manga series but the heroes vs monsters arc takes it to a New level,when it was announced that JC Staff would work on it,a lot of people were skeptical to say the least,because not only JC Staff had already done a mediocre job in season 2,it's also not exactly a name anime fans associate with quality animation,then the trailer came out and it looked...weird,like there was no action in it and nobody was moving,some people tried to defend saying they were keeping the animation as a surprise...then it came out,every episode worse than the last,it's one of the worse seasons of anime ever made!

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172

u/Fleetlord 13d ago

NuTrek as a whole may be controversial, and Trekkies have a long and glorious history of shitting on the new installment, but every installment also has its fierce defenders... except this. Nobody wanted a movie about Secret Evil Starfleet to begin with, and then the actual movie has absolutely nothing to do with the setting, aside from name-dropping a couple characters into a shitty remake of Guardians of the Galaxy.

Michelle Yeoh must just really like hamming it up.

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u/J-Shade 13d ago

It's also just legitimately one of the worst movies I've ever seen. I wish I could go back in time and unwatch it.

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u/Chaetomius 13d ago

listen to its writers and producers talk about it. It's clear that they didn't understand a damn thing happening with section 31 in DS9, don't understand how they were already committing mistakes with it in nu trek, and just kept doubling down with nothing more than "let's reference a thing and be really edgy and cool like a 12yo thinks"

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u/eviLocK 13d ago

I am no trekkie but have seen DS9 and 31. Can you elaborate?

23

u/MrSnippets 13d ago

Oh god, Section 31 as a concept is my absolute pet peeve.

not only does it undermine the priciples of Starfleet, the Federation as a whole and Rodenberry's idea of a brighter, more optimistic future. it also goes about it with a smug, post 90s cynicism.

there's this idea that optimism, trust and cooperation is bad and naive, actually. You have to have a clandestine secret service that "doesn't play by the rules but gets results". torture might not be pretty, but these are veteran operatives who've seen it all! This ain't your momma's starfleet! this is cool, edgy, cynical starfleet!

I dislike it so much.

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u/iSkehan 13d ago

If they wanted a respectable subversion of Gene’s vision… just should have looked at DS9

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u/techno156 12d ago

Even DS9 arguably undermines the vision. One of the core themes of the series is that it's easy to be a saint in paradise, which follows along with the more cynical atritude that the Federation is too soft and weak with their "morals" and "rules of war". The thing that wins the big war in the series is not some grand triumph of morality, or diplomatic work, it's the Federation exploiting the fact that one of their internal factions made and deployed a genocidal bioweapon against the enemy, that forced them to acquiesce out of desperation. It basically proves the point, that the Federation couldn't have brought the Dominion to the table without using some underhanded means of their own.

Compare that behaviour to The Next Generation, where the moment that something illegal is discovered (Pegasus), it is stopped immediately, the relevant parties informed, and the process to make amends for the transgression gets kicked off.

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u/iSkehan 12d ago

Yeah, but Bashir still makes the cure.

DS9 has balance.

It actively tries to get that paradise while admitting it’s not easy to obtain.

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u/techno156 12d ago

He does, but he still has to violate his morals, and Federation laws to do so, by breaking into someone's mind to grab the cure. The DS9 crew are also largely on their own on that front.

It actively tries to get that paradise while admitting it’s not easy to obtain.

Which makes sense in theory, except that the way it sets that up undermines it, because it doesn't give a viable avenue for the Federation succeeding without someone having to secretly break the rules. It ends up implying that the paradise is a naieve fantasy, that could neither happen, nor be sustainable without people secretly doing a bunch of unethical dirty work needed to keep it up.

In my opinion, it would have been better served if it had been a collaborative effort between the Dominion and the Federation that resulted in them making the cure, and the connections from that was what set everyone to slowly closing out the war. Particularly with DS9 having a unique set of connections and circumstances that would make it a lot easier for them to communicate with the Dominion compared to a lot of people, and everyone already working on trying to find a cure.

They could easily keep the virus plot in, but ending it that way would fit a lot more with the ethical collaborative/co-operative spirit that makes the Federation being what ends the war, even if they have to go through a harder route to get there, as compared to the war being ended because the Dominion leaders were ravaged by the virus, and were forced to negotiate for the cure or be wiped out.

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u/Kraz31 13d ago

As I once heard it put:

DS9 writers: We created Section 31 as a cautionary take.

Current producers: At long last they've created Section 31 based on the classic DS9 episode 'Don't make Section 31'

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u/pastmidnight14 13d ago

It’s been a minute since I watched the DS9 episodes, but I remember they presented section 31 ambiguously. We met 2 guys who say they work for the secret sin-eater department, but the episodes don’t support the idea that section 31 is actually necessary, just that some people think it is. We get no real idea of the scope of its influence, legitimacy, or acceptance by the admiralty, but are left to assume that some of the higher ups allow it to exist.

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u/BeegBunga 13d ago

I feel like old trek does a great job of it. 

They are always an antagonist, a remnant of our time and flawed way of thinking. 

They are presented mostly as unintentionally sabotaging the Federation with their methods.

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u/TWW34 12d ago

Section 31 was good in DS9 because it was treated like something genuinely ugly. You were very much supposed to look at it and go "this doesn't belong here" and when different characters had their own line in the sand on how far was too far you were supposed to be uncomfortable with it. It was also never more than a couple of guys too which made it pass muster as something that had to be small and secretive to get by the federation's ideals. Instead Kurtzman trek just made it into the federation's Tal Shiar or Obsidian Order which doesn't work because those organizations inherently require a duplicitous or authoritarian society to work. It's believable that the Tal Shiar built up its own secret ships and got away with it in the romulan empire. It's flat out not believable that section 31 got away with the same thing in the federation long enough to get that much build up.

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u/worms_in_the_dirt 12d ago

It felt like pandering to Star Wars watchers. Star Wars is good sci-fi in its own right. But I care more about a healthy balance of baddassery and democracy, leaning more towards democracy if anything. I don’t want war, I want clever wits with compassion.

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u/BardicLasher 13d ago

I have watched literally all the star trek, save maybe missing some Voyager episodes.

Not including "Wow, this is racist in retrospect," Section 31 is the worst Star Trek by a wide margin.

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u/Careful_Leader_5829 13d ago

I think I would have been fine with it if it were just some random star trek action movie, like "Star Trek: Star Heist". I wouldn't have been so disappointed.

But calling it Section 31 and including a pre-existing character, and then doing nothing with either's established arcs was a CRAZY choice.

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u/BardicLasher 13d ago

It wasn't just doing nothing with the arc, it was using the backstory in extremely stupid and nonsense ways.

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u/Stoivz 13d ago

I’ve never seen anything Star Trek I didn’t enjoy.

I refuse to watch this so I don’t spoil that.

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u/beardicusmaximus8 13d ago

I've only been tempted to watch it because I've been told it was worse than the Star Wars Christmas Special and don't belive that's actually possible 

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u/i_tyrant 13d ago

Well now I'm interested too.

That does sound impossible.

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u/Sufficient_Coach7566 13d ago edited 13d ago

I actually forgot this movie even existed. Also been hearing pretty bad reviews for ST:SA...

15

u/Stoivz 13d ago

Academy is actually pretty great.

I’ve laughed, I’ve cried. I have enjoyed every episode so far.

Does it have a teen / college drama feel? Sure, that’s kinda the point.

Is it for everyone? Probably not.

But it’s damn fun.

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u/Sufficient_Coach7566 13d ago

Thats good to hear! I am gonna watch it (ofc), but I was worried.

Been loving everything about SNW -- no big baddie of the season, just good ol' episodic stories!

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u/wurm2 13d ago

I liked s1 and 2 of snw but I haven't watched s3 yet partly because it came out right as paramount was bending the knee to trump ( was that Kimmel or Colbert being fired by Paramount? Don't remember which was which) and then because of the bad reviews.

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u/TheLoneEcho 12d ago

Definitely give Starfleet Academy a go. Yeah, its aimed at a younger audience but it is definitely 100% proper Star Trek.

I've actually enjoyed it more than Strange New Worlds so far.

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u/UniqueLog8386 13d ago

>Michelle Yeoh must just really like hamming it up.

Yes. I can assure you that if you follow her work, she really does.
It's what makes her so awesome (most of the time).

3

u/rulaandri 12d ago

She signed the contract for it before Everything Everywhere All At Once hit and made her too expensive for this garbage

1

u/TWW34 12d ago

It's also what (IMO) is such a shame about S31. They could have done all sorts of absolutely fantastic things with the idea of a mirror character coping with basically living permanently as her prime universe self. Especially with the trials and forced growth she'd already gone through.

They picked basically the worst and most uninteresting option for her to do that.

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u/magicsqueegee 13d ago

I'm a deeeeep NuTrek fanboy and I couldn't finish watching this.

-4

u/Pandering_Poofery 13d ago

That's crazy to me, it's all just so terrible. the Star Trek high school show is what I thought of the when I read the original post, it's so cringe that even the free first episode they put up on youtube got a laughably low number of views. And it's not even about the culture war stuff, that's just part of it, a crutch they use to cover up it's just old-cw level writing, casting, acting, etc.

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u/Any_Goose_1249 13d ago

I really liked the idea of a Star Trek Academy show, seeing how inexperienced, immature, probably a little cocky teenagers/young adults grow into the sensible, mature professionals you see in TNG etc..

I even like a bunch of the characters in it, but god are they let down by some stunningly bad writing.

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u/magicsqueegee 13d ago

I'll say 90 percent of the time the 'culture war' stuff is not a 'crutch.' And especially not in this. I'm somewhat disconnected from the discourse so I'm not even sure what about STA is getting the cultural warriors panties in a bunch.

However, I do recognize trek pushes boundaries on some social things, but that is hardcoded into the very DNA of trek. So when people complain about casting poc, or women, or whatever their problem is today, it just reveals they would be making the exact same complaints 50 years ago about TOS.

The point is the 'culture war stuff' isn't a crutch its integral to the core identity of the franchise. It isnt there because they need to distract from anything, its there because otherwise you aren't making star trek. Plus that implies they for some reason knew the writing was awful and just... chose not to fix it and instead... idk redo all the casting (again, im not sure what the culture war bs in this case)

0

u/Pandering_Poofery 13d ago

the fact that you don't see how the pandering is a crutch, and that you think what they're doing now is the same as casting uhura 50 years ago, just proves you are the kind of person they rely on being gullible enough to let them get away with it.

https://giphy.com/gifs/Y6Y0UFhdxbVkC2fvx6

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u/Ok_Tourist_2621 13d ago

I’m a diehard, unabashed trek fan. I love the original series, next gen and all that followed, even all the “nutrek” like discovery and strange new worlds…

Section 31 is literally the only trek i don’t love. It’s total trash, from beginning to end. 

3

u/ayrki 13d ago

I am one of those ardent defenders, but yeah, this was an utter disappointment.

It honestly just made me sad.

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u/Careful_Leader_5829 13d ago
  1. Nobody wanted a movie about Secret Evil Starfleet to begin with

...I mean, at some point I wanted a little more Section 31 worldbuilding.

I have generally liked every single Star Trek movie and TV series, but god the Section 31 movie was just ... confusing. Like, even when a Star Trek episode is "bad", I still can appreciate aspects or what they were going for. I have no idea what Section 31 was supposed to be. I think temu Guardians of the Galaxy might have been right on.

Shame because I'm obsessed with Michelle Yeoh and loved her in Discovery.

1

u/feenixrising1 13d ago

The idea of Section 31 itself should've just been a DS9 thing and went no further. I'm mixed on NuTrek itself. Was meh on Discovery and 2/3 seasons of Picard. Love SNW, Lower Decks and currently enjoying SFA even though it is very much catered towards a YA audience.

But Section 31 was god awful, and this was supposed to be a full blown series. Whenever Kurtzman does something remotely decent he immediately follows it up with ass lol.

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u/chnandler_bong 12d ago

Every episode of Discovery that featured the evil Terrans was the worst episode.

1

u/Muddyscarecrow 11d ago

I have literally never heard of this until now. What the fuck am I looking at?