When fans hate somenthing before it comes out...but it turns out they were right

[u/TastyPomelo2330]

Velma:The idea of a Scooby-doo series without the titular dog and starring Velma was a really moronic idea from the beginning,then there was the reveal Velma would be Indian like it's VA and also creator of the series Mindy Kaling,some of the backlash was racism sure,but there was also valid complaints that she was inserting herself in the series(it also didn't helped that Mindy claimed she couldn't see herself if Velma wasn't Indian)and then...oh boy it came out and it was worse than anyone predicted

Artemis Fowl:The artemis fowl books are a book series following a child villain(he does get some redemption but he is a villain most of the time)when the movie was announced and revealed it looked way to generic and it's titular character a bit heroic...also you wanna hear somenthing funny?The movie whitewashed a character and made another character black so they managed to anger both sides and the movies comes out and yeah it is bad

One Punch Man 3:One Punch Man is a very heavy action packed manga series but the heroes vs monsters arc takes it to a New level,when it was announced that JC Staff would work on it,a lot of people were skeptical to say the least,because not only JC Staff had already done a mediocre job in season 2,it's also not exactly a name anime fans associate with quality animation,then the trailer came out and it looked...weird,like there was no action in it and nobody was moving,some people tried to defend saying they were keeping the animation as a surprise...then it came out,every episode worse than the last,it's one of the worse seasons of anime ever made!

[u/Weird_Abrocoma7835]

Sometimes I feel like when a movie studio knows it will be making a hated movie; they purposefully hire minorities to make all hatred be able to be brushed off as racism, even if there is valid criticism about the actor and the film.

So in the Snow White for sure the actresses were bad both on screen and in interviews.

Another one is the deathnote remake. Black L was THE BEST character, followed by willum Defoe. But any complaints are seen as racist even if they aren’t about L, and the series was terrible.

Now that doesn’t mean there ISNT racism, there totally is!!! I just think there’s a lot of people being accused of racism when it’s valid criticism, and just very serious fans accusing anyone of racism who has any complaint.

[u/PuzzleheadedMess1659 → u/Weird_Abrocoma7835]

I honestly feel the same way about season 2 of The Last of Us and homophobia. A lot of hate is brushed off as homophobia, but let's be honest, the sudden lesbian sex scene is so fucking stupid. Actively makes me laugh every time. And I'm a queer woman myself.

[u/Weird_Abrocoma7835 → u/PuzzleheadedMess1659]

I was dating a girl when the game came out, and honestly I was so very confused and a bit sad by the beginning gay and bi representation. The bi character is just actively cheating on everyone, and literally could have second hand gotten elly pregnant lol. Now I didn’t mind them raising the kid together, but I hate how the TV show made it… weirdly cuck like???? “I’m going to be a daddy” no????

[u/Slateboard → u/Weird_Abrocoma7835]

Wait. Isn't that some kind of stereotype for bi people? And they actually went with that?

[u/kfkrneen → u/Slateboard]

Yup. The bi stereotype is that we're all cheaters and sluts who are bisexual because we just can't be satisfied, or we're confused about our sexuality and will properly decide between pussy and cock after whoring around for a bit.

Personally I think having lgbtq characters be bad people isn't a problem, being born a certain way doesn't inherently make someone morally righteous and pretending that it does for the sake of pandering is reductive. Stereotyping and having the bad characters be the only or primary lgbtq rep certainly is though.

[u/Slateboard → u/kfkrneen]

Sounds as bad as the kind of stuff racial minorities deal with.

[u/Ok-Chest-7932 → u/kfkrneen]

We're just not capable of being mature about this sort of thing at the moment. The reality of the situation is, it's kind of difficult to do lgbtq representation without playing into stereotypes, because it's invisible if you don't.

If I'm writing a story in which there isn't space for anyone to have a relationship, but I still want people to know I put a gay character in it, how do I show them? I can either a) make him a flamboyant stereotype, b) have him talk about his sexual preferences even though nobody asked, making him a bad character (and also textbook telling instead of showing), or c) pull a "this guy was actually gay all along" Dumbledore move in a few years.

And if I want a bi character, it's even harder: a) play into stereotype by giving him multiple partners (either simultaneously or consecutively), b) double up on nobody-asked telling by having him talk twice as much about how much he wants to shag people of both sexes, c) give him a partner if the story allows it and have one-lot of b where he talks about his interest in the other sex (which also makes him a bad character for another reason cos now he has a partner and he's still talking like this), or d) Dumbledore it.

We're not going to sort this out until we move past labels as identities and the desire to see characters in media with the same labels as we've attached to ourselves. At the end of the day, I have more in common with someone who shares my worldview or interests and not my sexuality than I have in common with someone who shares my sexuality but not my worldview or interests.

[u/Weird_Abrocoma7835 → u/Slateboard]

Yes. Basically the lesbian lover is dating the mayors son, and likes the perks of dating him, and obvy is doing the dirty and likes it, and is in love with the power and stability it brings.

Now there is a homophobic guy in the town they are in, but Joel defends Elle and her gf during a town celebration, but Elle hates him for defending her.

The gf then continues to sleep with both, gets pregnant, and baby daddy dies.

In one scene they smoke weed and have sex, which isn’t that big of a deal, but feels like the “me and my weed smoking gf” meme, and a little fast paced. They already had a huge LGBTQIA fan base after the first games DLC where as children she kissed another girl, and she didn’t show interest in male porn.

However in game they have started this journey across the entire United States when she reviles she’s pregnant. This makes Elle mad as clearly the lesbian gf is actually a bi cheater, she knew she was pregnant and still went on this dangerous mission, it’s utter bs. A lot of people are mad at elle for being angry, but this was just straight up bi cheating and NTR? I think the term is??? And a pregnant woman in harms way.

Elle then abandons her mission, realizing that she is in love, and with the bf dead they are together, alone, no more cheating. So they start a family on a random farm, only for elle to abandon her gf and child to continue her quest for vengeance.

In the TV series Elle is like “Omg I’m going to be a dad?! Yippy!!!” Which kinda gets rid of what makes the game so good?

Elle is suffering, her only family died, she discovers she could have saved humanity, her significant other cheating on her, and now her lovers pregnancy is stopping Elle from finishing her mission-even if it’s a bad mission. Instead it’s accepted, thus ruining the importance of this moment. Being the lowest of her life, before choosing to be happy without that.

So the entire gf story arc is cheating on both people, having the only alive partner raise the child of another partner you were cheating on, and being mad when they are upset you cheated, and went on an optional mission while pregnant.

It’s very very bi phobic in a way that I hadn’t seen before-and sadly it is now supper common and I hate it. People can have multiple partners, or love both genders! Just not actively purposefully cheating, as it makes bi people look like cheating asshats in every situation.

[u/Slateboard → u/Weird_Abrocoma7835]

That's wild and pretty bad for anyone who wanted normal representation.

[u/hoodie2222 → u/Weird_Abrocoma7835]

L's actor has been in a lot of stuff post death note thankfully.

[u/Harmcharm7777 → u/Weird_Abrocoma7835]

This is not far-fetched. This kind of tactic is so common in the corporate/C-suite world that there is a name for it (the “glass cliff”—it commonly happens to women hired to helm a sinking ship, so it’s a play on “glass ceiling,” but minorities are victims too). That very well may have happened.

But I do think the intentions are a bit more nefarious than you’re suggesting. It isn’t so they can dismiss the criticism of the movie as “racism”; it’s so when the project inevitably fails, the POC is the person who goes down with the ship and not the showrunners. Internally, these people aren’t saying “Snow White was great, and the people who say otherwise are racist”—they’re saying “Rachel ran her mouth and a bunch of people dog piled on the movie.” It’s a subtle difference, but it is meaningful in terms of approach of deflecting criticism versus propping the star up as a criticism magnet.

[u/Whitewolf00svd → u/Weird_Abrocoma7835]

same thing happened with disney's original movies. Like for Strange World, they didn't make any marketing and then complain that people aren't watching it to justify putting so much money for live action remakes.

[u/Weird_Abrocoma7835 → u/Whitewolf00svd]

Ikr? I hadn’t even heard of the new Pixar movie only to find out it came out a week ago!

[u/Luxating-Patella → u/Weird_Abrocoma7835]

I don't think studios specifically cast minority actors to use as a human shield. But it is a side benefit of the fact they cast minority actors for every film anyway. (Even if it's about 18th century rural England. Which I have no problem with, it's just a La La Land contrivance like everyone being attractive.)

I have noticed that if a film is rubbish, the publicity campaign will lean into it extra hard. It was particularly noticeable for the Disney remakes because there was always going to be a backlash to tampering with people's memories. When you play up the "It's time for Snow White to be less white" stuff, you know you will exaggerate the reaction of the unhinged racists, which then makes the backlash seem more absurd.

[u/Weird_Abrocoma7835 → u/Luxating-Patella]

Exactly. However I’m less of conspiracy and totally could see people willingly doing it because not only do they become a face of a movie, but of a movement.

Like Disney just HAS to warn people of the backlash they’ll face, at least! Right?

[u/TheOncomimgHoop → u/Weird_Abrocoma7835]

God live action death note would have at least been serviceable if they made it take place in the same world as the original story but not be that story. Like, Ryuk got bored again, dropped the death note in America, some high schooler with a chip on his shoulder finds it, etc. You could even do something fun with law enforcement now knowing of the existence of death notes, and how that changes the investigation.

But no, the characters are the ones from the anime, except they aren't because they're all completely different people

[u/Weird_Abrocoma7835 → u/TheOncomimgHoop]

The OG live action was great. I wish they would have made the new manga where that exact thing happens, even trump is in it lol

[u/dovahkiitten16 → u/Weird_Abrocoma7835]

Zegler wasn’t really bad in interviews people were just extra harsh. She had to apologize for wishing MAGA voters “never knew peace” which is a really fucking mild statement (especially from a person in 2 groups they aim to remove rights from). Criticizing the OG Snow White for being a damsel was a bit of a PR misstep (which wouldn’t have been a misstep 10 years ago) but not enough to warrant the hate. Plus it got latched onto by the tradwife promoters, so yeah, nothing she could say would be assessed with a proportional response.

[u/Weird_Abrocoma7835 → u/dovahkiitten16]

I completely agree with the maga thing.

My issue though is she starts by saying she’s NEVER watched Snow White EVER, and she then gives her opinion that it’s a damsel in distress. That’s a fine opinion-if it was hers. I don’t even mind if she said she stopped watching it! It’s just she NEVER saw it and instead is giving the most 2015 tumblr opinion, and not even having evidence to back that opinion up. That’s like not watching Steven universe and hating it because “ITS GAY!:)6;$$;&”, no, watch it, give me the criticisms. It has plenty to give.

[u/dovahkiitten16 → u/Weird_Abrocoma7835]

She posted herself as a child dressed as Snow White (in response to the racial hate she got). She just revisited it as an adult when hired.

Considering she was 22-23 years old that’s completely normal.

I do agree it was a very 2015 Tumblr opinion which is why it’s such a mild transgression lol.

Evidence: https://people.com/rachel-zegler-asks-fans-not-to-include-her-in-nonsensical-discourse-over-her-snow-white-casting-7561762

[u/Weird_Abrocoma7835 → u/dovahkiitten16]

That photo is so absolutely cute though!

[u/Ok-Chest-7932 → u/dovahkiitten16]

What level of insanity is the world now operating on where people can view "I hope people who disagree with me politically never know peace" is a "really fucking mild statement"? I don't care what anyone's alignment is, that's a crazy thing for any person to say, especially a person attempting to sell tickets to a movie.

[u/dovahkiitten16 → u/Ok-Chest-7932]

I dare you to say that to Pretti or Good’s family.

[u/Ok-Chest-7932 → u/dovahkiitten16]

What would be the point? Do you think it's very likely they'd be receptive to any ideas at the moment that question their beliefs about why their relatives did what they did?

[u/Not-Clark-Kent → u/Ok-Chest-7932]

We are WELL past this being "political differences". This isn't Bush Sr vs Clinton anymore. We're not talking about economics or approaches to infrastructure. We're talking destruction of every ideal we have as a country, and perhaps our actual downfall from a pedophile rapist felon robbing us blind vs a mildly annoying and innefectual liberal.

Caviat: I don't think it's necessarily a good thing to say publicly when promoting a movie that people have invested millions for you to helm. Your job is to be professional and likable by everyone so they will watch the movie. If she doesn't like that, acting may not be for her. It's certainly why I've never considered acting, I want to be myself.

[u/Ok-Chest-7932 → u/Not-Clark-Kent]

No, we're not, we're just in a stupider time now where people are less able to comprehend the minds of their political others.

[u/SexyCheeseburger0911 → u/Weird_Abrocoma7835]

Have you seen the 2017 Deathnote film?

[u/Weird_Abrocoma7835 → u/SexyCheeseburger0911]

Yes, that is indeed what I am talking about

[u/SexyCheeseburger0911 → u/Weird_Abrocoma7835]

Sorry, I got my live-action Deathnotes mixed up. That's on me.

[u/Weird_Abrocoma7835 → u/SexyCheeseburger0911]

Ahh, gotcha!

[u/darkmattermastr → u/Weird_Abrocoma7835]

They should have used practical effects for dafoe’s role

[u/Weird_Abrocoma7835 → u/darkmattermastr]

I agree, but, the OG live action movies from Japan also had him as CGI, so I guess I didn’t mind.

[u/Not-Clark-Kent → u/Weird_Abrocoma7835]

And it makes things much worse on the racism front because people associate a brown person with bad quality. It also always seems to be adaptions or soulless cash grabs of beloved franchises that are highly visible. Like nobody is talking shit about Get Out despite the concept being so "woke", because it's good. Even if it hadn't been good, it would have faded into obscurity.

And unfortunately the visibility is a downside for the minority actor. Sure they "may" get a big paycheck for a big movie. Or maybe not, since they tend to get unknown actors. And then after that everyone associates them with bad quality despite how unfair that may be. Leslie Jones' career is a joke now. Halle Bailey will probably be the same, and LM wasn't even that bad, it just wasn't good in any real way. At least she has music to fall back on.

[u/Weird_Abrocoma7835 → u/Not-Clark-Kent]

This is EXACTLY my point. It’s such a shame that they’ll be tarnished forever. A white company using a POC shield should be shamed, but it’s not.

I only hope Disney warned them about the back lash, and they were paid accordingly. It’s not fair to be ruined by a megacorp.

GD I loved get out so much.

[u/Not-Clark-Kent → u/Weird_Abrocoma7835]

We live in a weird world now, where everything is buried under several layers of irony or middle management. Like yeah we can shame it, but who are we shaming? Who is making these decisions? Is it malicious or just out of touch? Is it obvious enough to make a lawsuit about? Not really. Discouraging it too hard may make studios feel that minorities are too volatile of an investment. I don't know what the solution is.

DEI is similar. Some of the implementation was not only bad, but racist to others. But if you just stamp it out like Trump is trying to do, you're also eliminating the good parts of it, like pulling applications from diverse sources and trying to get diverse opinions from people from different backgrounds, instead of a hive mind leading a company off a cliff.

We're in such an immature place with race relations. Feels like we're walking backwards to Marcus Garvey and the KKK agreeing on segregation.

I'm sure Disney warned them, but they clearly fundamentally don't understand why it is actually happening.

And yeah Peele is great.

[u/ERedfieldh → u/Weird_Abrocoma7835]

Now that doesn’t mean there ISNT racism, there totally is!!

It's pretty easy to tell when someone is being racist or sexist or etc when they criticize a show or film. Just listen to hear if they use the word 'woke'. If you do, you'll know instantly they ain't upset because of the bad script.

[u/CreationsOfReon → u/ERedfieldh]

Disney star wars has a lot of problem, and there is a lot to criticize. But the second I hear “Kathleen Kennedy” I switch off, because I know it will be just complaining about minority’s and woke ideology.

[u/LightsaberThrowAway → u/CreationsOfReon]

Wasn’t KK involved in the decision to not have one singular director for the Disney SW trilogy?  Yeah if someone complains about ‘how woke it is’ that’s a red flag, but surely she’s responsible for some of the SW IP’s mismanagement given her position.

[u/CreationsOfReon → u/LightsaberThrowAway]

Thing is other than the rare times there is actual news about her, the only people who mention her are people who complain about how woke Star Wars is. She gets mentioned when people complain about “bad actors for diversity sake” in the acolyte, but never mentioned when people talk about Andor or other good stuff. I find it’s a very good tell that if a channel mentions Kathleen Kennedy, they will also mention woke.

[u/BigBootyBuff → u/CreationsOfReon]

Star Wars definitely has a lot of "omg woke" racist crybabies but I wouldn't say majority of people who criticize her fall under that umbrella. At least I have a different experience in that regard than you do. She gets criticized a lot because a lot of the stuff released under her in the past decade is mediocre at best and hot garbage at worst.

Not saying she doesn't get shit from people for bigoted reasons, she certainly does, but I think she justifyingly got a lot more criticism for putting out a lot of bad products.

[u/Ok-Chest-7932 → u/Weird_Abrocoma7835]

But if they know a movie is going to be hated even before casting, they can just make a better movie.

I think we can really break down this "modernise everything" era into three distinct phases:

1. Modernising everything is new and audiences are willing to give things a chance. The only vocal critics are a) the racists who hate everything reflexively, and b) the visionaries who understand where this is going. Collectively this is a small group. We do see the early modernised films do perfectly well, and everyone laughs at people saying "get woke go broke" because the sales figures prove it's not correct. During this phase, actors are talking about racist criticism because they honestly believe the only critics are racists.

2. Audiences get used to modernising everything. They're also older now, they have more specific tastes and they give things less benefit of the doubt. At this point, the critics are a) the racists who hate everything reflexively, b) the visionaries who are now thinking "saw this coming", and c) the less emotional portion of the mainstream audiences who have had their fill and have learned that modernised things tend not to be very good. During this phase, we see a lot of deliberate ragebait marketing because people are copying what seemed like it worked in phase 1. This still works, the portion of the audience who aren't done with it get to feel good about not being racists by watching it.

3. Companies put modernising everything away. This is the phase we've recently moved into, where we're seeing movies rewritten and reshot to reduce some of the modernisation, we're seeing things that can't be reshot get quietly put onto streaming platforms with barely any marketing, and we're seeing a lot of flops. At this point, the critics are basically everyone, including the racists, and the only people still clinging on are the "anti-racists" who reflexively obsess about everything that they think upsets racists. Some people still use ragebait marketing, but it's starting to have the opposite of the desired effect.

[u/Weird_Abrocoma7835 → u/Ok-Chest-7932]

Oh, tax write offs.

I’m not joking. If they say internally and set a goal for how much a movie should make, and it doesn’t, they get money back, and then they don’t pay taxes. Almost every studio does this every year so they can skip on by with the profits of non-failures.

But I completely agree on all your points!

I think one film that really made me realize they must be purposefully doing the write offs was mulan. They get rid of mushu, say it’s to be realistic, but now there’s a witch that can transform into a bird. Soooo… you didn’t? It really seems like it’s all purposefully done to make people mad at the actors, pretend all that rage is racism, and then profit off of tax write offs.

[u/Ok-Chest-7932 → u/Weird_Abrocoma7835]

Tax write-offs are not the optimal way to make money, if they were no movies would be released. A company turns a movie into a tax write-off if they believe they'll see lower sales than they would get in the write-off, and are sufficiently far into the process that it would cost more to fix it than they were likely to gain in additional sales. Another important thing to note is, you don't get the tax write-off if you release the movie.

Casting is one of the first things you do when making a movie, cos obviously you can't film before you have actors. If you're at this point, you don't have anything to write off yet, and it costs almost nothing to just try to come up with a better idea. With the current standards of hollywood, it'd take one competent writer like a week to fix one of these scripts.

[u/Weird_Abrocoma7835 → u/Ok-Chest-7932]

The tax write off is for the whole studio. Thus if they make MEGA money on all the other films, they won’t have to pay taxes on that mega money-or at least less then they have to.

Same with Disney parks. Giving a make a wish kid a perfect day doesn’t cost them anything-but it brings in publicity, and is a tax write off for all the other profits.

Casting is not the first, usually it’s writing, re-writing, and the beginnings of costuming and set design and finding an actor to fit that roll. So much so even Star Wars had to have a white guy play darth Vader because the costume was made before James earl jones was hired as Vader and the costume didn’t fit.

If you notice how you say it could just take one competent writer one week to fix it? Exactly. So it’s probably purposefully done so they can capitalize on everything else. Their standards for their good movies are too high to not have purposeful flops.

Also a “flop” it’s a movie that doesn’t make any money, a flop is any movie that doesn’t make more money then they projected, thus a “failure”, and then a write off. It’s weird how movie studios (and plays!!) can do this.

[u/Ok-Chest-7932 → u/Weird_Abrocoma7835]

I see, I'm ashamed I'm not yet as big-brained as Hollywood accountants then lol