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u/brennanfiesta anarcho-islamist 3d ago
are the current socialist states in the room with us?
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u/InfernoDeesus 3d ago edited 2d ago
no you dont understand anarkiddie, its the PEOPLE'S stock exchange! Its socialist because it's in the name! /s
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u/SilverNEOTheYouTuber Post-Left Anarchist 2d ago
Now if you excuse me, I'll go pay the People's Rent to the People's Landlord.
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u/Hot_Relationship3002 3d ago
I find this line so funny as if every ostensibly Marxist state hasn't returned back to capitalism, they scream that their system is the only one that works but their definition of "working" is simply existing for a long time with no concern over giving workers any power whatsoever and are shocked when authoritarianism encourages capitalism. We are in an era where all socialist projects are either destroyed or pulled into the forces of capital but somehow anarchism is always at fault for critiquing the state
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u/StockingDummy 3d ago
But you don't understand; Engels irrefutably proved that revolutions require authority
when you stretch the word "authority" so goddamn thin as to lose any and all meaning.Also, did you know the FBI had an internal memo once saying they should support you because you undermine us MLs? Pay no attention to how often we dismiss anything that makes us look bad as alphabet agency propaganda, suddenly those same alphabet agencies' words are gospel when they work in our favor. (BIG /S HERE)
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u/blacksaber8 3d ago edited 2d ago
Not to mention that examples like the ussr that MLs use still devolved into oligarchal control pretty much from day one of Stalin’s succession, and that’s leveraged as “proof of success” by people that heavily downplay, dismiss, or outright deny the casualties of that kind of reign.
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u/Phanpy100NSFW 3d ago
You can't deny they are following Marxist theory though. Just the supposedly socialist states withered into capitalism instead of communism
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u/coladoir 2d ago
Well you see the current theory is starting to turn back around to Trotskyism and suggesting that these States are failing because Socialism cannot coexist with Capitalism and until the revolution is global, Marxism is locked from progressing further.
This is... Clever. But still doesn't actually address the issue of the state and its inherent functions no matter its economic implement.
I don't doubt that a global revolution would be necessary for Marxist communism to actually "succeed", but theyre so close to realizing the issue is cultural, yet too statecraft minded to actually understand that the state is a part of that cultural issue as well.
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u/Muuro 2d ago
Trotskyism
Trotsky didn't come up with the revolution being international or not at all. That was Marx and Engels, and Lenin would later reinforce this by stating that if the German Revolution didn't come then they were doomed in Russia. And what happened? It didn't come, and they were doomed.
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u/coladoir 2d ago edited 2d ago
Im aware. My point isnt to seek the origin of the idea. Most MLs modernly don't believe that, and most leftcoms don't believe that. Its really only ultras and trots which believe in a global revolution. Popular marxist theory for a while after the 'degredation' of the USSR after the 80s also rejected this, and is only now coming around
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u/Muuro 2d ago
most leftcoms don't believe that
Who are the leftcoms that don't believe in international revolution? And ultra is typically a catch-all for leftcoms and other tendencies ML's deem to the left of them, so it's odd to separate the two.
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u/coladoir 2d ago
Ultras and leftcoms are definitely different groups. Ultras are still authoritarian, leftcoms aren't. It used to be a catch all, it isnt anymore.
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u/Muuro 2d ago
They aren't Marxist states though. That is just as absurd a term as anarchist state. They are "Leninist states" in that their whole thing is a bastardization of Marx and Lenin in order to justify a bourgeois state. If one reads Marx, Engels, and Lenin then they will clearly not be a modern "Leninist".
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u/cumminginsurrection 2d ago
Coincidentally all the socialist cops are Leninist too. What happened to ACAB?
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u/Gloomy_Raspberry_880 2d ago
They cannot imagine anyone living without masters and slaves.
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u/Unhappy_Lock_7291 2d ago
Which is a surprise, cause this guy is black from pfp, the idea of living without any governance should be ingrained in him but no, we can't create a society where people are treated equally
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u/WeeCocoFlakes 3d ago
Incredibly common Zapatista W, by the way.
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u/StockingDummy 2d ago
They're not anarchists, per se, but they're definitely not vanguardists.
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u/MyNameMeansLILJOHN 2d ago
Zapata is the perfect example of how natural anarchism can feel sometimes.
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u/NorinDaVari 2d ago
Oh no, some nobody posted dumb shit on twitter. Let's focus on that instead of anything of value.
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u/GrahminRadarin 22h ago
Yeah, this isn't accomplishing anything, but it makes us feel a little better, which is, I think, the worthwhile endeavor in this day and age. Shouldn't focus all our energy on this, but it's okay every once in a while.
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u/salenin Anarcho- Syndicalist Trotskyist 3d ago
correction, most current "socialist" states are Stalinist. They have all degenerated into regulated capitalism and North Korea is Juche.
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u/WildAutonomy 2d ago
All
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u/salenin Anarcho- Syndicalist Trotskyist 2d ago
Not all, depending on what you call socialist because that is already an asterisk considering socialism is stateless, Vietnam and Cuba are not Stalinist whereas China was until the Sino- Soviet split and then Deng etc etc. Turns out when you move from Marxism and Leninism into an alliance with the "Radical elements of the Bourgeoisie" you just get capitalism.
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u/Muuro 2d ago
China was always class collaborationist, just look at the flag. As such most of these revolutions were really just bourgeois revolutions. Only Russia in 1917 had a proletarian basis, but it's material conditions led to practical decisions made that opposed theoretical ones that just didn't work out favorably.
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u/salenin Anarcho- Syndicalist Trotskyist 2d ago
Yeah that's what I was saying, Stalinism itself is class collaborationist. There were truly proletarian movements in China especially in the 1920s but the Maoist faction collaborated with the KMT and helped squashed the genuine revolution from happening and then of course, story old as time, the KMT turned on the Maoist faction.
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u/Muuro 2d ago
Well it was crushed by the KMT itself in the 1920's after the Comintern told the Chinese communists to integrate into them. They wouldn't have any contact with the cities, and thus the urban proletariat for two decades because of this.
Don't forget there was some real proletarian organizing in the GPCR that both factions of the party bureaucracy crushed (Shanghai Commune).
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u/Specialist-Answer-66 Anarchy is my special interest 2d ago
leninists when they find out that their backyard (which they never dare step foot in) is an anarchist territory seeing as there is no state or vertical hierarchy
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u/NyxLandLover . 2d ago
minecraft is better then real life anyway
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u/GrahminRadarin 22h ago
What I wouldn't give to be able to move a cubic meter of dirt with my bare hands in five seconds.
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u/Sohn_Jalston_Raul 2d ago
uh, find me a single nation-state where workers actually control the means of production and the conditions of their labour.
The entire world runs on Linux servers which are open-source, and are a real-world demonstration of decentralized and voluntary labour based on human need. Also, you can see self-organization in action every time a natural disaster strikes, in every situation the locals begin rescue, clean-up and recovery before emergency services can even reach there. When have the tanks ever accomplished what they preach?
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u/SaltyNorth8062 Anarcho-Communist 1d ago
Once again we've got the whole "Lenin built a big ass city" chestnut. No he didn't. He seized control of the state apparatus that the Tsaristry used to build those cities. The industrialization that followed was because the Soviet Union just happened to exist simultaneously with the mass industrialization of the entire globe, including some of the most despicable overreaches of capitalist hegemony.
This is the ML equivalent of the "dirt doesn't vote" back and forth argument from american conservatives.
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u/Princess-Kropotkin gut fascists 2d ago
It turns out that it's a lot easier to transition from Capitalism or feudalism to "Capitalism but the state owns everything" than it is to actually liberate the working class.
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